Building permission rights

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Building permission rights

Postby zebrafilm » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:26 pm

Hope it is in the right forum...

Our architect went to the local Moobaan office for the building permit. They said it is all fine, we just need 20.000 cash and handed over somewhere. She did and was told it would be all done soon in the first week of April when another superior would come in and set the last signature but yes all was fine.
Two weeks later she called but nothing was done because the guy went on holiday instead of coming to the office. (huh)
Then at the end of April she called again just to hear that the guy came in, now he demands 60.000 and wants to talk to the builder and refuses to talk to the architect or to the owners.

Thainees at its best. We laugh and cry at the same time but we now need a strategy to solve this.

First of all, we are trying to find out if there is a common 'rule' and what the costs involved should be. My wife says it is probably a country wide government law. IF anybody knows this, please share.

Talking only to the builder: my guess is to hear how much the total build will be and get a share of that money too. We don't even have chosen the builder yet. We also know the build will take two years and we need to renew the permit yearly.

If we refuse the whole thing, he might give trouble every year. On the other hand we are not planning to 'fund' his new car and raise our costs without limits. Next year it might be the same story.

Another option is to go to an anti corruption office and see if they can deal with it. Of course they have been very careful not to leave any trail but we could record the next phone calls. The side effect might be that we get some nasty people at the door when we start living there.

The Thai way is probably pay and see if we have some family working in that field or area and negotiate a bit down.

We don't mind paying people for the work done but this gets a bit extreme. It also seems they feel strong because we got an inexperienced nice female architect.
Should we pay them a visit with a lawyer and see if he gets scared?

Any similar experience and how did you solve it?

Bastiaan and Pat
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:06 am

zebrafilm wrote:Thainees at its best. We laugh and cry at the same time but we now need a strategy to solve this.

In my opinion there are two ways to solve this, the first is to engage a lawyer and have him draft a letter to the Consumer Protection Agency (fairly trustworthy),
the second is to go and file a Police complaint, which is what I would do, and then go and slap the Mooban with a copy of the Police complaint and take your lawyer with you and finally take the Police complaint to Crime Suppression Division and tell them you are not getting any satisfaction and will they take over the investigation.
I know it's not the Thai way, but from what I have read about the junta's Complaint's Centre, you'll just get a bigger run around there. If I was in any other country but Thailand I'd give the whole thing to the media and let them run with it, but as the Thai media have no Investigative Journalists that's a waste of time.
Just remember, they are public servants and are supposed to serve the public. Get angry like I do, it gets results.
The cost for approval is 180 baht, paid at the front office with a receipt.
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby olavhome » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Maybe it is a good idea let your wife/girlfriend check out with other who have made house in your area recently.
If they have paid anything or not.
When we made our house in Satuk/Buriram 3 years ago there was no payment involved.
I had drawn a plan for the house myself but a man at obator made builders plan for payment of thb 5.000,-
When my wife asked of we needed any kind of official approvement they said "not yet-not so developed area" :-)
We made our house just opposite to obator so they had full control of the development.
We invited some of them to the house warming party, the head man made a speach saying he was happy with the build, and heard nothing after :-)
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:35 pm

Legally, here's where you stand, (which your architect should know). Building permits are issued after the plans are submitted to the Mooban Engineer. He is the approving authority, nobody else. As soon as he stamps every page of the plans you pay 180 baht and get the official receipt/permit and then have 12 months in which to build. There is no other fee.
File a police complaint.
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby schuimpge » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:36 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:Legally, here's where you stand, (which your architect should know). Building permits are issued after the plans are submitted to the Mooban Engineer. He is the approving authority, nobody else. As soon as he stamps every page of the plans you pay 180 baht and get the official receipt/permit and then have 12 months in which to build. There is no other fee.
File a police complaint.


About as good an advise as you’d get from a multi million lawyer and it’s free to boot..

Well said RR
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby zebrafilm » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:09 pm

Little follow up here:

We followed the advice of the Thai family and kept trying the Thai way. They had contacts with about the same level as the Moo Baan guy and we send him off with a 'gift' basket with an expensive whiskey to 'talk'. He came back that it was all fine but still nothing happened.

To sum up:
From the start the architect was in touch with the MB people to make sure the final design would be ok. (They offered to make the drawings but we did not accept their high priced option)
The final design was submitted January 2018 and after an envelope with 20.000 baht we got a message it was all accepted and ready around March. Just the boss had to sign. When nothing happened again we called and we heard we could not speak to this guy but he did not wanted to sign nor give a reason for refusal.
Between the lines we heard he was stopping it 'because we wanted to build a resort' secretly. More likely he wanted the job as a builder..... (he seems to have multiple other companies)
My brother in law went there and had a pleasant talk but could not get it moving (he is a nice local guy)
Then we had two higher ranked people offering to 'talk' but they backed out on the last moment.
Then we send the CM officer with the basket, got told it was all ok but still nothing and we want to start in May. Everybody says we should just start and fix afterwards but we don't want it.

Now it seems my turn and show up there with a lawyer because I am fed up with this behaviour. It should take max 2 months and 200 baht and at least get a letter of disapproval. Any suggestions for a lawyer that is not too 'connected' to the 'establishment" in and around CM?
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:58 pm

zebrafilm wrote:We followed the advice of the Thai family and kept trying the Thai way. They had contacts with about the same level as the Moo Baan guy and we send him off with a 'gift' basket with an expensive whiskey to 'talk'. He came back that it was all fine but still nothing happened.

Your first mistake is not having plans, your second is you didn't go yourself without anything but an attitude they do the job they are supposed to do.
If you have the land (blue book) with the layout of the land drawn on the paper, the plans and both an engineer's signature and an architect's signature on the proposed plans the Or Bor Tor or Mooban engineer must approve the plans.
Stop doing it the Thai way, do it the legal way and it will sail through without all the bribes. If he still won't sign with the plans, land and the two signatures then drop a gentle hint you will take it to his boss. If I want something done I go and drag the boss of the Or Bor Tor to my car with the girl who speaks passable English and show him the problem and tell him to fix it. Normally it's done within 24 hours, as long as you know the law and make sure he knows it.
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby zebrafilm » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:49 pm

Thanks for your subtle answer :-)

Of course we have a plan, architect signatures and engineer calculations and signature.
There is no blue book, it is bare land currently getting a Chanotte which also took more than a year.

We tick the boxes. Do we make mistakes? Possibly, but at least we tried te recommended way. The formal way is next and yes also my pref.
We will keep running into this guy and office for example for well drilling we need another permit. Not so strange that in a small Moo Baan the Thai are careful. They don't like to get stones through the windows when a mafia guys tries to show his power. It is again a (subtle) balancing act between the Thai habits and the western way of blasting through.
I've lived and worked a big part of my life in Asia and learned that 'bending bamboo' never breaks. :-)

Since we are still most time in Europe we need to hand over things but that seems no longer possible. Also the MB head does not want to talk to us, (only to the builder), I assume a subtle way of telling they need more money. All in all an interesting story and lesson.

What remains is my question if anybody has a good lawyer to help in case this escalates.
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:14 pm

zebrafilm wrote:Thanks for your subtle answer

I have never been subtle, I call a spade a spade and not as the Thais like to do, a shovel.
I would be sending the whole thing to the Consumer Protection Authority with a copy to the boss of the Or Bor Tor, just so he gets the message he should do his job.
I believe I wrote all this sometime ago and told you which way to do it.
Running to a lawyer will not help at all, just increase the cost of the build. It appears they want to keep things the Thai way with people being subservient and bowing before them, I prefer they earn their money we the taxpayers are paying them to do their job without tea money or bribes involved. But as the Thais say "Up to you."
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Re: Building permission rights

Postby jazzman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:30 am

It actually depends where your land is located. if it's not Chanote land, then it's probably arable and in a remote village. Many rural areas do not require building permission. I didn't, and it's not so remote. I live almost opposite the OrBorDor office.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
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