Solid Wood Cabinets

Anything to do with wood or woodworking for example, DIY woodworking, Construction techniques using wood, etc.

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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:55 pm

canopy wrote:I do know the costs involved and it's not much.

Clearly you don't or you would be doing it yourself.

canopy wrote:If the market is willing to pay 50 times more than the tree cost then enormous profits are there for the taking

the standard is from dimensions in board feet to finished timber the typical price for Red Oak (I know that it's not teak but the same rules apply Apart from the fact that you have to cut 50 preferably 100 year old trees to eliminate a huge % of sap wood using teak) is $35 to $125 per 1000 board feet of standing trees. the finished timber is about $7.50 per board foot.

canopy wrote:By the way, transporting teak legally is easy and cheap though there are lead time considerations involved for clearing the paperwork. The problems are with people who are not legal and don't want any questions asked. That becomes complicated and expensive.

I was talking about legal wood and the experience of legally shipping even with the correct papers is neither easy or cheap and has proved so difficult that i know of at least one producer who was forced out of business as he couldn't ship his legal logs.

canopy wrote:I use teak for every single component of cabinetry so I can sleep at night not having to worry

So you seem to have a supply of 50 to 100 year old timber with all the sap wood cut off.

The reason why Teak is expensive is there is a rapidly diminishing supply of old teak and the controls are there to prevent the huge damage caused by clear felling, the most economical and environmentally damaging methods causing flooding and killing people.

I haven't heard that there were a lot of trees planted over 50 years ago, but I would be happy to be proved wrong

IF as you (mistakenly) believe it is simple fast and cheap with a huge profit Why don't you do it?

The difference between standing trees price and finished timber is real, as are the costs, time, and risks. Big business can balance those and make a reasonable profit. An individual could make a business if the capital is there and he can wait the several years to start selling his product. I won't be buying much for about 10 to 15 years and then will not be rich.
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby kmanonmaui » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:22 pm

canopy wrote:*ONLY* 34k fort the wood?!



Poor choice of wording on my part..."The wood alone" would have been much clearer.

<original message edited, added colour - Mod>
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby kmanonmaui » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:30 pm

Certainly my costs were double or triple of what they would have been if I went with narrower lumber, but I wanted single solid pieces from floor to the top of the frame. We certainly had to pay the $250 baht (which was provided to us by the seller) and the wood had to be hammer stamped to show we had paid the fee to take it out of Nong Khai. Not sure if the fee was based upon the cost, quantity or per load. Was able to get all I needed in my pickup with about a meter overhang.
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby kmanonmaui » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:19 pm

I can't read a single "letter" in Thai and my workers were not able to translate the type of wood we purchased, only to say that it was a good hardwood for furniture but that they would also be applying a termite treatment to it (they also said that the factory applies some form of termite treatment during their processing which makes sense as a lot of the places we went into their massive mill and warehouses had wood that had obviously not be touched or moved for years and I saw nothing that would cause me to believe that termites had been around).

I am confident that the length as well as the width is a major part of the costs being so high as well.
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Klondyke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:42 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:the standard is from dimensions in board feet to finished timber the typical price for Red Oak (I know that it's not teak but the same rules apply Apart from the fact that you have to cut 50 preferably 100 year old trees to eliminate a huge % of sap wood using teak) is $35 to $125 per 1000 board feet of standing trees. the finished timber is about $7.50 per board foot.


That's hugely exaggerated: $7.50 per board foot = $7,500 per mbf (1,000 board feet as usually US timber is dealt with, multiplied by 0.42 to cbm) = $3,178 per cbm

Here I have a recent offer of red oak 2com in container arriving to Bkk port (thickness in inches 5/4=1.25" 8/4= 2", cut to random width 4" - 10", lengths 2 - 3 m, neatly bundled):
5/4 2com Red Oak – US$1,100/mbf = $466/cbm
8/4 2com Red Oak – US$1,190/mbf = $504/cbm

to which ca. $50/cbm is added for customs and container handling

2com is not the best quality, better is 1com and the best is 1FAS with higher prices, however, it never can go over $1,000/cbm for red oak (cheaper than white oak).
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Klondyke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:33 pm

kmanonmaui wrote:I can't read a single "letter" in Thai and my workers were not able to translate the type of wood we purchased, only to say that it was a good hardwood for furniture but that they would also be applying a termite treatment to it (they also said that the factory applies some form of termite treatment during their processing which makes sense as a lot of the places we went into their massive mill and warehouses had wood that had obviously not be touched or moved for years and I saw nothing that would cause me to believe that termites had been around).

I am confident that the length as well as the width is a major part of the costs being so high as well.


Your invoice is for Mai Makhaa, a kind of red wood, not so easy available, not so cheap and somehow on the edge of legal wood.
The unit counted is per piece (pen), the dimension is quite confusing but that's normal in Thai: 1 x 15 x 200 cm is written, however, only the width 15 and length 200 are in cm, the first figures 1 means obviously 1 inch.

MBF, 1000 Board Feet nobody knows in Thailand - just few people who deal with US exporters. A price measure for Thai people is Baht/cft (que foot taorai?). So when you calculate your first item of 200cm, it is ca. a quarter of cft, i.e. you pay ca. 17,000 Baht/cft.

To give you idea what other wood costs in Baht/cft:
-old teak in legal shop 4,000 - 10,000
-rubberwood ca. 450 - 500 (used by majority of Thai furniture and kitchenware factories)
-acacia 350 - 450
-imported (US) oak 1,000 - 1,500
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby kmanonmaui » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Thanks for the valuable information. We did go out in hopes to find Teak but were not able to find it in the sizes we wanted. It appeared that these boards had been sitting in their warehouse for many years if not decades
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:47 pm

Klondyke wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:the standard is from dimensions in board feet to finished timber the typical price for Red Oak (I know that it's not teak but the same rules apply Apart from the fact that you have to cut 50 preferably 100 year old trees to eliminate a huge % of sap wood using teak) is $35 to $125 per 1000 board feet of standing trees. the finished timber is about $7.50 per board foot.


That's hugely exaggerated: $7.50 per board foot = $7,500 per mbf (1,000 board feet as usually US timber is dealt with, multiplied by 0.42 to cbm) = $3,178 per cbm

Here I have a recent offer of red oak 2com in container arriving to Bkk port (thickness in inches 5/4=1.25" 8/4= 2", cut to random width 4" - 10", lengths 2 - 3 m, neatly bundled):
5/4 2com Red Oak – US$1,100/mbf = $466/cbm
8/4 2com Red Oak – US$1,190/mbf = $504/cbm

to which ca. $50/cbm is added for customs and container handling

2com is not the best quality, better is 1com and the best is 1FAS with higher prices, however, it never can go over $1,000/cbm for red oak (cheaper than white oak).


Sorry but my figure is actually low

"OAK, Red - Quartered/Rift $7.45“ per board foot
Of course I'm not talking of wholesale prices and never have and neither was Kmanonmaui, so your examples are not relevant since you are talking of container quantities and we are taking of retail. That you are talking cubic meters should have been a clue.

FWIW :Tectona grandis or Burmese Teak is selling for $44.25 in 4/4
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Klondyke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:24 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Sorry but my figure is actually low

"OAK, Red - Quartered/Rift $7.45“ per board foot
Of course I'm not talking of wholesale prices and never have and neither was Kmanonmaui, so your examples are not relevant since you are talking of container quantities and we are taking of retail. That you are talking cubic meters should have been a clue.


Such a huge mark-up? That's would be a retailer's dream, not only in Thailand...
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby canopy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:07 am

By looking carefully at the wood grain I believe both the width and depth of the wood he bought are specified in inches, not centimeters. Obviously the back was ripped from 2 pieces but I see a lot that looks like single wide pieces. That's some impressively wide boards--15" wide. It's beautiful stuff too.

To sww: I am saving bundles of money going to where the wood is milled instead of paying retail prices and its' clear as day how i could save much more by bypassing the mill. This is irrefutable. Let me dispel one last thing. You insinuate that I don't start a business is somehow proof what I am saying is not true. This is best answered with a story.

--

A boat docked in a tiny Mexican village. An American tourist named Jon complimented the Mexican fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them.

"Not very long," answered the Mexican.

"But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked Jon.

The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.

"But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

"I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, have sex with my wife. In the evenings I go into the village to see my friends,
have a few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs. I have a full life."

The American interrupted, "I have an M.BA. from Stanford and I can help you. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angeles, or even New Jersey! From there you can direct your huge enterprise."

"How long would that take?" asked the Mexican.

"Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years."

"And after that?"

"Afterwards? That's when it gets really interesting. When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make
millions!"

"Millions? Really? And after that?"

"After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your children, catch a few fish,
have sex with your wife, and spend your evenings drinking and playing the guitar with your friends!"
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby BKKBILL » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:06 am

:mrgreen: :D :mrgreen:
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:31 am

[quote="canopy"]To sww: I am saving bundles of money going to where the wood is milled instead of paying retail prices and its' clear as day how i could save much more by bypassing the mill. This is irrefutable. Let me dispel one last thing. You insinuate that I don't start a business is somehow proof what I am saying is not true.[/quote]

We have clearly miss comunicated.

I know that by buying unseasoned timber from the mill your price will be a smal fraction of the cost of seasoned timber from a wood yard and that by buying logs you could reduce that again and by buying standing trees the cost goes down again. I don't question any of that.

It's the assertion that in a short time anyone just by processing 10 trees a month is somehow going to become incredibly rich due to the difference in price, of something around 65 times, between a tree and usable seasoned wood.
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Re: Solid Wood Cabinets

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:39 am

canopy wrote:By looking carefully at the wood grain I believe both the width and depth of the wood he bought are specified in inches, not centimeters. Obviously the back was ripped from 2 pieces but I see a lot that looks like single wide pieces. That's some impressively wide boards--15" wide. It's beautiful stuff too.

The measurements are in inches for width and thickness and centimetres for length, though the boards loose a little in width as they had a grove down 1 or both sides.

So a I" x 15“ x 2 meter board at 4,500 Baht having been stored for probably more than 10 years seems a respectable price, it may even be cheap.
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