New pool DIM

Any thing to do with swimming pools, fish ponds, or other man made structures which hold water (but not wells for drinking water).

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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Breizh29 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:15 am

Hello
New pics :?:
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Ok an update 250217

Postby Rdteth » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:09 pm

Some pictures

20170225_172616.jpg
As per today
.

20170225_172220.jpg
As per today


In 3 months not much progress. I know it. Can build the whole pool in 3 months.
I finished the wall rebar. 20cm x 15 cm in the bottom and 20cm x 20 cm above 1 m depth. I also put in some left over steel in the lower corners. Total 451 x 10 m steel 12mm is used at an average price of B 155, including the guttersteel. I choose 12 mm for the gutter although 9mm is normally used.
Then some workers made the "spa"walls. And then they were fired. And I started to make the woodform for the gutter, installed them and closed them on top. You don' t want it filled with concrete now, do you.
For the outside formwork i decided to use wood as well. I had some left and since i had no idea when to pour concrete, i did not want to rent steel. Besides with wood it is more easy to make difficult corners etc.
But i found new workers and i only had to explain how to. And they picked it up and as you can see the outside is almost done. Forgot the tankoverflowpipe though. Will do that tomorrow. Because they have to work this sunday without extra pay, since the rented steek formwork is laying around -at ridiculous costs I might add-.
So tomorrow and monday put up inside steel including all pipes that go through everywhere. Tuesday finish and seal it all so wednesday the concrete can flow. And flowing it will since i will use a 30m cpac concrete pump truck. That price seemed reasonable to me and as it will be some 20m3 why not, probably gives a better result than any other way, especially in my layout where the trucks can only come to the front. So it will definitely be the most exciting day in the poolbuilding.
Thursday get the gutterform out. I made the bottom 20cn wide and the top 21 cm so i guess i have to keep it pushed down during the pour. That's easy to do. Take the form out after 1 day because the rebar on which it is standing can then be filled up together with the enclosed airholes with some fresh no-shrink concrete. It will grow to be 1 piece.
Friday take away all other rented steel and ship it back. Cause i only pay 1 week rental, starting today. Rental is quite expensive, for the 50 m avg 1.5 high with corners and a 100 poles it'll cost about B1500 per day with a deposit paid at B35000!!!!!!! A vibrator cost B600 per day with a B6000 deposit. Well still cheaper then buying. I would recommend this firm to all, it is sakulvit, have many places. Very cooperative.

Prices for rendering and waterproofing are squaremeterprices. So i guess the pool will be finished in the end after all. Never doubted that though.

20170123_073847.jpg
2" screw-fitting with backplate (not yet glued)


This group of workers now is group number 7. Which means 6 have gone already, mostly due to them lying about experience they "claimed" to have and all of them because of absolute incompetent work delivered.
No 7 comes via JD pools. I was looking for fittings, online and in shops and found it always unclear or not what i wanted. I have no faith in pressfit stuff fitting 1.5" and 2" etc. I want solid stuff, good servicable, heavy and strong. I found that at jd- pools. It' s a franchise so my jd-pools in taphong can be different from any other. But mine came with all the knowledge I lacked off at that time. My contact is the serviceman, since first time he visited me about 5 times, he took me to different pools 3 times for explaining or showing. All i bought was fittings 2" eyeballscrewfittings at a low price. The insidescrew is 1.5" so your vacuum fits aswell. I know he wants to sell filter and pump too and probably install it all as well, but he not yet asked. He did bring me group no 7 and sofar they do good.

That's about the build.
Now something completely different.

I'm an electrical guy. So a number of months ago I was very happy to hear from members here that it is an absolute waste of good money and time to put light into the pool. Just some nice outside lighting and you're the man. My first thoughts: no electricity then no need for complex safety requirements. I could' t have been more wrong ofcourse. Why......
Poolllights work on 12V AC, will never ever kill you. Outside lights work on 220V up, will kill you for sure, want to see my scars, i've been there, i've felt it, the ladder i stood on saved me cause i fell of it and got loose.
Then this dutch guy skipping on the side of the pool, grabbing whatever he could, fell in the water and then it turned out he grabbed live 220V wires. Didn't live to tell.
So to anybody reading this: Electrical safety by means of good (and measured) earthing in combination with a leakage current measuring and off switching device (max 30 mA earth leakage switch) is a 100% must.
My 3.5 m copper no 10 rod is in the ground, even connected to to rebar with a 10mm2 cable. They will go into the switchbox and all electrical power will leave from there. That includes all sockets in the pool area.
Ok you probably guessed there is more to this issue, and yes there is.
When playing my electrical guitar in the 2 wire house I can feel (and hear) the electricity on the strings. Very annoying. I solved that here by using a 220 to 220 transformer, that works for the feeling part but not for the hearing part. A 3 wire systems solves all these problems. Have to play near the pool. Lucky me, not the neighbours,.....I'm not good at all but i like doing it.

Will make some daily progress pictures and report back in a week hopefully with a closed and fillable watertank.

Cheers
Rene
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Breizh29 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:21 am

Hi Rdtech,

I hope that your construction progresses as you wish. :?
I think that the overall volume of your pool (basin, buffer tank) must be around 95-100m³. Which pump(s) and filter did you plan to have a correct overflow?
How many linear meters have you overflowing?

Regards
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Rdteth » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:21 pm

Hello Breizh29,
You have come to a point that' s been on my mind for a year.

Question:
If you have a pool or watertank or fishtank....
sized 1 by 10 meter. You have 1 wall, length 1m that is 1m high. All the other walls are 1.5m high.
Now you pump 36m3 per hour in this basin.
How high will the water be in the basin in the stationairy situation?????. ( say 10 minutes after the tank starts overflowing at the lower wall).
My calculation:
36m3/ hour equals 10liter/second equals 10000cm3/ second.
With a wall-length of 100cm you would need 10cm height. In my case with appr. 22 m gutter it would come to a few mm only ( in the impossible scenario that all walls are at the exact same hight)
Well I don' t believe that. I think it will be less. The rising water will give a higher speed to the outflowing water. due to a higher waterpressure.
And therefore an even lower rise of waterlevel.
But I haven' t found the real calculation behind this.
So, who is gonna tell me??

My pool will contain appr. 110m3.
I have not choosen any pump ( i will need at least 2, so do you) or filter. I will however start without chlorinator. Will prepare piping for later installment.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Klondyke » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:04 pm

Overflow:
As a matter of fact, the volume of OF over the edge of the OF wall is equal to the volume of the water the pump is sucking from the OF tank. The thickness of water layer over the edge is not much over 1 mm. The width of the OF surface should be slightly sloped towards to the pool. Then, the waves made by the swimmers are smoothly "ironed", a portion of the water is returned back to the pool without waves. Practically, you will not see sharp crests of waves (like you see at skimmer pools) just rounded waving.

Once you step out from the pool the water surface will get smooth within 1 - 2 minutes, unlike at the skimmer pools. You can test the difference when the pool is not fully filled up to edge with water level some 2 cm under the edge. You will get completely different feeling not only by the sharp waves into your nose but also how the water move the swimming body.

Important is the exact horizontal level not only at the pool edge but at the (risen) edge to the OF channel in order to have same OF throughout the whole length. (I have 40 cm tiles where the tile layers had made the inward edge of the pool perfectly horizontal, not so the 1 cm risen edge to the outlet channel.)

Within minutes after the pump is switched on the surface dirt is visibly moving towards the OF wall. Especially effective when the inflow pipe(s) are located in the depth (40 - 80 cm) of the OF wall. Then, the lower water layers are pushed against the opposite wall and the upper layers are returning the water to the OF edge.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Klondyke » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:42 pm

Rdteth wrote:My pool will contain appr. 110m3.
I have not choosen any pump ( i will need at least 2, so do you) or filter. I will however start without chlorinator. Will prepare piping for later installment.


2 pumps:
I would think it over. Firstly, 100 m3 pool can still easily be serviced by only one pump of some 25 - 30 m3/h (ca. 1.5 - 2 kW). This with 6 - 8 hours filtering will ensure exchange of 2 water volumes (what is often recommended). Although, in my experience, it does not need necessary be 2x, 1x is enough - just the portion of the dirty water, no need to filter the clean water (just kidding :D ).

Secondly, beside the investment/instalment cost also the daily operation/maintenance (and the electricity bill) would be doubled (also 2 filters? so double backwashing?).

Also a simplicity of the control should be regarded. I suppose that you will not always be available (or physically able). Then, do you really believe that any Thais will care (and know how) same as you?

Chlorinating:
Not much difference than a chlorinator will do your manual chlorinating: a spoon of chlorine partly dissolved in a small bucket, dispersed within 1 - 2 days into pool. Once you protect the water against algae growth by algaecides the chlorine is just for disinfection. The fear against bacteria (and the necessity of the strong continuous dosage) is overly exaggerated - mostly by pool shops - from obvious reasons.

For yourself, you do not need to keep such high chlorine level like the public pools where hundreds of uncontrolled people (mainly pissing kids) come. And the chlorine vapours are really not quite good for health, especially for people (and kids) with inclination to asthma, a number of studies about that can be found on internet.

BTW, anywhere outside of the pool water you are exposed to much more bacteria danger... :shock:
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Breizh29 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:07 pm

One pump for filtration and one for spa.
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pumps and filters

Postby Rdteth » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Mr Breizh29: correctomundo. 1 pump for the spa and 1 pump with 1 filter for cleaning of the water.
I have yet no exact planning how to build the inside of my pumproom. I always assumed any pipe as a input/output for water. Valves will decide what the function at any moment will be.
Ofcourse such way is unconventional and therefore by the poolbuilders-establishment wrong. I had one poolbuilder walk away due to this issue, not even a warantyless quotation anymore.
But I have a lot of pipes, for just the spa there a 3 2" pipes. Then a maindrain, which name i will use since it is in the very lowest part and can also be used for emptying the pool. Ofcourse valves will decide if water goes in the maindrain - I don't think water will need to come out the maindrain-, and where this water will go. Will it be used for cleaning and go through the filter, or will this maindrainwater end up in the spa or come out at the spa entrance, or maybe in the future will come out the waterfall......many options. Don't know yet.....
and then there are 6 eyeball return -or not- inlets, a vacuum in - or out???- a couple in the tank- most likely for cleaning only-, and a in/out???? in the spa floor and finally a 3/4" in the spa for air -I want to be able to use outside ( ventury) or compressed air from a machine in the spa jets and the spa floor.
So I think 2 pumps and 1 filter but I will have to do a lot of testing once there is some water in the pool.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Klondyke » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:24 pm

Breizh29 wrote:One pump for filtration and one for spa.

My two cents:
In fact, the pool pump can be used for the spa too. Once enjoying the whirls of the spa, the water pressure can be switched over to the spa system instead to the normal pool system. One of the positions of the 6-way valve is for whirlpool, then the pressure to the spa jets will be increased bypassing the sand. During this time the OF in the pool will be further fed by this water coming out of the spa.
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Re: pumps and filters

Postby Klondyke » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:30 pm

Rdteth wrote:I have yet no exact planning how to build the inside of my pumproom. I always assumed any pipe as a input/output for water. Valves will decide what the function at any moment will be.
Ofcourse such way is unconventional and therefore by the poolbuilders-establishment wrong. I had one poolbuilder walk away due to this issue, not even a warantyless quotation anymore.


Sucking intakes:
Once the pool is equipped by bottom intake(s), it is good not only for the pool emptying but also for steady sucking. And the sucking not only the (bad) water but also the fine dust whirled up in the lower layers. And when we have also the sucking from the OF tank to the same (one) pump we have to be able to adjust the flow of each line by proper throttling, each intake line should have an own valve.

If we want to have the intake 50/50 (such a normal operation), the flow from the bottom has to be a bit throttled. The pump cleverly likes to take the water from the bottom of the pool (with water column of the full pool - hence almost no resistance) rather then sucking from the OF tank of lower water level, with additional resistance of the one-way (check) valve.

When there is a strong downfall of leaves to the pool, we better fully close the bottom intake to get a stronger OF of the dirty surface. And when we brush the pool bottom and walls (also when we vacuum the bottom) we better close the OF tank intake, so having a stronger sucking of the whirled up fine bottom dust.
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Re: pumps and filters

Postby Breizh29 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:27 pm

Klondyke wrote:
If we want to have the intake 50/50 (such a normal operation), the flow from the bottom has to be a bit throttled. ........


I think for an overflow pool with reverse hydraulicity it is not necessary to use the bottom drain on normal operation (filtration). (but maybe I'm wrong?)
Some swimming pools are not equipped.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Rdteth » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:39 pm

In fact, the pool pump can be used for the spa too. Once enjoying the whirls of the spa, the water pressure can be switched over to the spa system instead to the normal pool system. One of the positions of the 6-way valve is for whirlpool, then the pressure to the spa jets will be increased bypassing the sand


Interesting option.
But would't you be pumping the "dirty" tankwater straight out the spa jetnozzles?
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Re: pumps and filters

Postby Klondyke » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:58 am

Breizh29 wrote:
Klondyke wrote:
If we want to have the intake 50/50 (such a normal operation), the flow from the bottom has to be a bit throttled. ........


I think for an overflow pool with reverse hydraulicity it is not necessary to use the bottom drain on normal operation (filtration). (but maybe I'm wrong?)
Some swimming pools are not equipped.

I do not know what you mean by "reverse hydraulicity".

Bottom sucking:
Yes, some pools do not have it. However, if we have got it, it is very good. Firstly, it is good for the fine dust sucking (and so its disposal) from the lower layers of the pool water, clearing the water, the dust will not come by itself up to the overflow. And thus postponing the necessity of (manual) bottom vacuuming.

Secondly, after the bottom vacuuming and a proper filter backwashing the water in the pool needs to be replenished by a new water - some 1,000 - 3,000 l, in order to get the pool water again up to the OF edge and have some more water in the OF tank. Such new water volume is not always available (especially at my troubled water system) - there is also another need for it in and around house - so the recirculation/filtration will run with the water sucked from the pool bottom.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Klondyke » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:04 am

Rdteth wrote:
In fact, the pool pump can be used for the spa too. Once enjoying the whirls of the spa, the water pressure can be switched over to the spa system instead to the normal pool system. One of the positions of the 6-way valve is for whirlpool, then the pressure to the spa jets will be increased bypassing the sand


Interesting option.
But would't you be pumping the "dirty" tankwater straight out the spa jetnozzles?


Firstly, I do not think that in the OF tank is a dirty water to be sucked by the pump. Should not - I wrote about it how to arrange the incoming water into the OF tank, in order not to whirl up the bottom dust).

Secondly, if it is the case, you close that intake and run only on the other intake(s) from the pool (same as you would run with the second pump anyway, wouldn't you?).
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Re: pumps and filters

Postby Breizh29 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:28 pm

Klondyke wrote:
Breizh29 wrote:
Klondyke wrote:
If we want to have the intake 50/50 (such a normal operation), the flow from the bottom has to be a bit throttled. ........


I think for an overflow pool with reverse hydraulicity it is not necessary to use the bottom drain on normal operation (filtration). (but maybe I'm wrong?)
Some swimming pools are not equipped.

I do not know what you mean by "reverse hydraulicity".

Bottom sucking:
Yes, some pools do not have it. However, if we have got it, it is very good. Firstly, it is good for the fine dust sucking (and so its disposal) from the lower layers of the pool water, clearing the water, the dust will not come by itself up to the overflow. And thus postponing the necessity of (manual) bottom vacuuming.

Secondly, after the bottom vacuuming and a proper filter backwashing the water in the pool needs to be replenished by a new water - some 1,000 - 3,000 l, in order to get the pool water again up to the OF edge and have some more water in the OF tank. Such new water volume is not always available (especially at my troubled water system) - there is also another need for it in and around house - so the recirculation/filtration will run with the water sucked from the pool bottom.

What is called inverted hydraulicity (a great word I know!) is simply the backflow of water into the pool from the bottom by the nozzles located in the bottom slab. The effect of this technique is normally to attenuate the dead zones at the bottom of the pool.
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