Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Any story related to building in the LOS, whether everything turned out hunky dory or not!

Moderators: MGV12, BKKBILL, fredlk

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby pipoz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:40 am

Stoace wrote:Yeah an aunty's house is near the road to the right of us and has no problems, the ground drains very quickly around us as long as we are up to the right ground level not down in the rice field.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I bet her house is founded on Pad footings, not piles and also the Pad footings are dug through the upper soil/fill layer in the virgin/original clay soil below. Chances are the underside/base of her Pad footings are 1.5 - 2.0 meters below the existing ground level assuming the upper softer soil/fill level is no more that a meter thick. In this situation a typical 1.0 x 1.0 or 1.2 x 1.2 meter Pad Footing will suffice.

He can simply dig a test hole or two and do a Plate Bearing Test, if the underlying original soil is most likely Clay or a Clay mix. He would already know what the type of underlying original soil is, from his knowledge of adjacent frames/houses. Its not going to vary much given you are not building in a flood plain or river bed

See if your Thai Engineer suggests the same, after his testing

Regards

pipoz
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1870
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Stoace » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:44 pm

Quick question/update.

When we met with the thai engineer he said he builds the walls with these

Image

He buys bricks which are the same of 2 of these on top of each other and i have said i want a double wall with a cavity. The concern i have is the thermal propertys of these? Given the outside render will be a light colour, the roof will overhang a min of 1.5m to shade the walls and the double thickness should help reduce the heating effect will there be any problem using these.

We have been out with him to see lots of previous projects which all look built well but are unsurprisingly similar in spec and look. The day has been a typical conversation of what i want vs what he has always done but i think i have got across what i need.

Comical chat about colorbond where he pointed out a local similar looking and cheaper option and i said but colorbond better because it keeps cool and he said "you believe what they say" dont think he got the irony of questioning whether i believed them while trying to convince me he could be believed!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Stoace
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:50 pm

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby pipoz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:53 pm

Stoace wrote:Quick question/update.

When we met with the thai engineer he said he builds the walls with these

He buys bricks which are the same of 2 of these on top of each other and i have said i want a double wall with a cavity. The concern i have is the thermal propertys of these? Given the outside render will be a light colour, the roof will overhang a min of 1.5m to shade the walls and the double thickness should help reduce the heating effect will there be any problem using these.

We have been out with him to see lots of previous projects which all look built well but are unsurprisingly similar in spec and look. The day has been a typical conversation of what i want vs what he has always done but i think i have got across what i need.

Comical chat about colorbond where he pointed out a local similar looking and cheaper option and i said but colorbond better because it keeps cool and he said "you believe what they say" dont think he got the irony of questioning whether i believed them while trying to convince me he could be believed!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hi and as a suggestion you might have a look at my wall construction, under my Build under "Udon Thani Happy House" Pages 9, 10 & 11.

I only used these standard Thai Red Clay bricks on several internal bedroom divide wall, not for my External Walls. They do get warm if on the outside.

For my external walls, I used Super Blocks (400 x 200 x 150) on the Inside Wall Skin (each block was TB 30) and I then used Concrete Breeze Blocks 6 cm thick, (each was TB 6) on the External Wall Outside Skin - to give it shape and also to construct the 50 mm air space (cavity) between the two walls skins. Laid on PLUVEX No 1 Damp Proof Course (Bottom of Page 2)

Walls are cool and no sign of rising damp

Just a suggestion

pipoz
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1870
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:52 pm

Stoace wrote:He buys bricks which are the same of 2 of these on top of each other and i have said i want a double wall with a cavity. The concern i have is the thermal propertys of these? Given the outside render will be a light colour, the roof will overhang a min of 1.5m to shade the walls and the double thickness should help reduce the heating effect will there be any problem using these.

We have been out with him to see lots of previous projects which all look built well but are unsurprisingly similar in spec and look. The day has been a typical conversation of what i want vs what he has always done but i think i have got across what i need.

Comical chat about colorbond where he pointed out a local similar looking and cheaper option and i said but colorbond better because it keeps cool and he said "you believe what they say" dont think he got the irony of questioning whether i believed them while trying to convince me he could be believed!!

The red bricks in the photo have absolutely no thermal properties at all. If you are building a double wall then Superblock or AAC as they are called here are the only things to use. The builder probably has no idea how to glue them and won't admit to it. All my walls are double 7.5 Superblock and there is absolutely no heat transfer at all. You can also chase all the electrical and plumbing between the cavity.
I also went with the Colorbond roofing with their insulation already glued to it and it has been superb.
Don't be talked into the cheap immitation crap they import from China. It has no warranty whereas Colorbond gives a 30 year warranty. There is an excellent supplier of Colorbond here in Thailand and they'll come out measure and quote and install all in the one price. There has been absolutely no complaints against the company from all the people who have had it installed.
The problem that I had to do with heat transfer came through my windows and doors. At the time I couldn't get double glazed windows and doors as the only supplier did high rise buildings only and my two stories was not high enough. In the end I had to put awnings over the windows and reflective blinds inside the house.
If you use red bricks your house will be stinking hot.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5251
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Stoace » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:59 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:The red bricks in the photo have absolutely no thermal properties at all.


Roger,

I assume you meant no beneficial thermal properties as everything has thermal properties. Does this mean they hold heat, heat up quickly or slowly, cool down quick or slow etc i understand the point and agree that the blocks are likely to be the best choice in an ideal world BUT how bad are the bricks if double walled with a cavity and rendered? And shaded by a 1.5m roof and trees? I have to decide how important it is to persuade my wife we need the builder to do something he isnt used to do doing with all the associated problems it involves vs how bad will it be if i dont rock the boat and let him build what he knows!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Stoace
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:50 pm

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:35 pm

Stoace wrote:I assume you meant no beneficial thermal properties as everything has thermal properties. Does this mean they hold heat, heat up quickly or slowly, cool down quick or slow etc i understand the point and agree that the blocks are likely to be the best choice in an ideal world BUT how bad are the bricks if double walled with a cavity and rendered? And shaded by a 1.5m roof and trees? I have to decide how important it is to persuade my wife we need the builder to do something he isnt used to do doing with all the associated problems it involves vs how bad will it be if i dont rock the boat and let him build what he knows!!

I have a townhouse built out of those same sort of red brick and even though the walls are protected by other townhouses either side it was like living in an oven, when we expanded the back bedroom over the kitchen I asked the renovator to use superblock for the back wall that copped the morning sun, and we also insulated the ceiling over the bedroom. The difference was immediately noticeable.
Unless you are going to seal the air inside the walls you'll have heat transfer through the red bricks, even though rendered. How much I can't say as I haven't conducted an experiment using them, but I did a heat check on the superblock that was sitting in the sun at the new house by picking them up and passing the blocks to the foreman so he could load them into a wheelbarrow to move to the opposite side of the house and I know I wouldn't try and do that with red brick blocks that had been sitting in the sun without gloves on, and with the superblock I didn't use gloves.
I like the design of your house with the 1.5 overhang of the roof and I'm not trying to influence you one way or another, I'm just stating what I've found, and done, when planning and building the new house. As far as swaying your wife and builder one way or another I didn't even consider that when I wrote what I did. It was completely from experience and I did also mention the pitfalls if your Thai builder didn't know how to lay superblock, so as the Thai ladies say "Up to you", you can take my advise or throw it away.
You asked a question which I answered to the best of my knowledge and experience and I have not conducted scientific tests to give you exact answers, I just know the builder I used had little experience with superblock, until I showed him how to lay them and glue them together and how to lay them properly. I could have asked the AAC block supplier to send out their demonstration team but as I was on site every day I just showed the foreman and left them to it. It's far easier laying (gluing) superblock than red bricks and this video from Youtube might help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxVayUGMQDg There's a lot more videos on youtube that show the Thai demonstration team at work.
Good luck.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5251
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Stoace » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:08 pm

Thanks for the reply I wasn't in anyway having a go just wanted to ascertain how bad they are, I understand the Thais use them extensively for water storage construction. I know superb lock is the right way to go in an ideal world just needed to know how important it was to have the fight with the builder and argument with the wife. Sometimes my money my rules doesn't win the argument lol
Stoace
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:50 pm

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby eyecatcher » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:14 pm

Stoace wrote:Thanks for the reply I wasn't in anyway having a go just wanted to ascertain how bad they are, I understand the Thais use them extensively for water storage construction. I know superb lock is the right way to go in an ideal world just needed to know how important it was to have the fight with the builder and argument with the wife. Sometimes my money my rules doesn't win the argument lol



Well it should do; every single time... :) ...it does at my house........ :) .....however anything else; and she wears the trousers. :cry:

Some good advice from the above posters re : the AAC blocks; I think slowly but surely the farang building contingent are gaining the knowledge and realising which materials are appropriate here and that we are not sheep just following the Thai flock.

Just to add further; its also a "no brainer" on costs.

Qcon 75mm- 20bt x 8.33=167bt/m2
Qcon 100mm- 28bt x 8.33=233bt/m2
Qcon 125mm- 42bt x8.33=350bt/m2
Q con 150mm- 49.5bt x 8.33=412bt/m2..............these are store prices can get 5% off these easily.
Bag 23 adhesive 182bt= 8.5bt/m2 for fixing

20x100 bricks 50/m2 at 3.0bt=150bt/2 (plus a very wasteful 45bt/m2 for mortar- because they don’t know how to mix)
20x100 bricks laid flat as 100 wide 80/m2 at 3bt=240bt
20x80 bricks 60/m2 at 2.8bt= 168bt/m2
60mm concrete clinker crap block 4.5bt= 57bt/m2
70mm concrete clinker crap block 5bt= 63bt/m2

The cheap blocks at the bottom although they are cheap, they really do fall apart as you pick them up, so you need to increased your order by 50% I would say. That’s not a joke!
The surface area of the bonding surfaces is tiny, there is nowhere to spread mortar so what they do is just try to fill the holes/voids with mortar. People often forget that mortar is very expensive, the correct mortar mix for facing bricks in the uk (a while back) worked out at £2 a m2, that’s 100bt. Here they don’t know how to mix, pour in a bag of cement and another and that’s it.
I have been bricklaying myself recently on the 100x200 bricks and I have found that even being careful I reckon 25% of my mortar ended up on the floor wasted; and people dont think its a cost. I mix 1:5 or 1:6 here its 1:1 or 1:2 becasue they just guess..............with your money.

When you weigh it up; to lay 1m2 of bricks on a straight wall will take an hour; to lay 1m2 of Q cons (8 blocks) will take you 15/20minutes. So in one day 8m2 of bricks or 32m2 of q cons.

Pay a bit more for the block, save on labour, save on mortar, save on time, better insulation standard. Win win I think.

simply no argument at all for bricks . the AAC blocks are cheaper; the figures speak for themselves. As i said before I think they like bricks because it keep them in work for longer.....which is an oxymoron of course because they dont like work.

Why am i using them? as others said, only on internal infill walls, they are more robust than blocks for chasing conduits; no need for the poured concrete infill corners and a bit more manageable for infilling between my columns.

its your money......now make the rules.! :wink:
eyecatcher
 
Posts: 1312
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:50 pm
Location: Chiang Mai

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby bindog » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:08 pm

Hi OP. I have been a member here for a while but don't think I have posted before. Like you, I am beginning to think of designs and such. Not ready to talk builders yet, I am some years behind you, but will be following your build with interest. Some good advice so far re the bricks and the colorbond roof. You sound like the type of bloke who has done his homework already, but read up on 'thermal mass' if you haven't already. What's good for the UK is not so good for Thailand with it.

I also want to keep mechanical cooling to a minimum. I have a few favourite designs that I have done myself, but have begun to realise I must toss them out and start again. Which is not so bad, the rough first drafts are the fun part. :)

My designs were big square or rectangular structures, without clear lines for breezes to flow thru them. A bit like your design pictures there. :) I have read up on 'passive cooling' but wondered whether the wind in Thailand isn't maybe too hot to be used for cooling? But this case study on this Australian govt website gives me encouragement, as it is damn hot up Darwin way. http://www.yourhome.gov.au/case-studies/darwin-river-northern-territory

This is the website itself - http://www.yourhome.gov.au/ - Just remember Oz is in the Southern Hemisphere, so swap north for south when they're talking sun direction / aspect etc.
And another with some good info - http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/passive_cooling.htm

Good luck with the build!
User avatar
bindog
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 3:27 pm
Location: Sydney / Buriram

Re: Ban Phai, Khon Kaen Eco ish House Project

Postby Stoace » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:43 pm

Bindog

Thanks for the post

Passive cooling is incorporated in a way as there is a predominate north south wind and as the swimming pool will be on the north side of the house we may benefit a little from the wind passing over the water mass BUT the average wind speed where we are is 2m/s around 4mph or a "light breeze" on the beaufort scale!! basically not very fast and unlikely to have any serious impact on cooling the house. I think passive cooling using air flow is only really a goer in Thailand if you are on the coast or near to the coast on high ground where the weather conditions a very different to inland.

My original design was a U shape which would funnel the wind over the pool into the living area but that was not pretty enough for the wife :roll: so we are back to the box shape!

We are expecting first draft from the architect soon so will hopefully have a more substantial update soon.......
Stoace
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:50 pm

Previous

Return to Your Building Story

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 0 guests