Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:31 pm

AK49 wrote:
Ians wrote:Why do you want to pump into a 200ft well?


My thought was that if I were taking out of a 200' that I would want to put back in the same so the water travelling through it would have time to

cool. then would pass through the rock to be taken up again.
The idea is to use the water table not deplete it.


Wouldn't suggest this as being good practice as you are returning water plus any contamination picked up on the route direct into the water- table ---far better to return it at the surface or at a lesser depth and let in permeate to the water-table ensuring contaminates are removed.
Think you should check with the appropriate authorities before going down this path.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:03 pm

Ians wrote:
AK49 wrote:
Ians wrote:Why do you want to pump into a 200ft well?


My thought was that if I were taking out of a 200' that I would want to put back in the same so the water travelling through it would have time to

cool. then would pass through the rock to be taken up again.
The idea is to use the water table not deplete it.


Wouldn't suggest this as being good practice as you are returning water plus any contamination picked up on the route direct into the water- table ---far better to return it at the surface or at a lesser depth and let in permeate to the water-table ensuring contaminates are removed.
Think you should check with the appropriate authorities before going down this path.

Two-well system (nonalternating) — A general rule to follow is to drill the return well to the same aquifer at the same depth as the producing well. Return wells in sand and gravel aquifers must have a screen to help prevent incrustation and facilitate water movement. Water is always returned below the water level to reduce precipitation of dissolved solids on the well casing.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:43 pm

No idea where / what "Two-well system (nonalternating)" is/has come from or it infer any authority for pumping untreated water direct into an aquifer.
A quick search has turned up the following - but note it is talking about returning - treated water back into the aquifer.

http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/20 ... -vote-year
http://www.sptimes.com/News/100701/news ... o_aq.shtml
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:20 pm

Ians wrote:No idea where / what "Two-well system (nonalternating)" is/has come from

From the second link

Q: What do I do with the ground water in an open-loop system after the geothermal heat pump has used it?

http://bit.ly/1rclOJv
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:34 pm

sometimeswoodworker.

Thanks for the link - http://bit.ly/1rclOJv, very interesting discussion - and clearly shows that not all US states approve the discharge back into the aquifer, why?
It also understandably points out that for a low permeability aquifer a return well may not be effective, raises the question - does the OP know the permeability of the aquifer his wells are installed in - has a correctly installed and monitored draw-down pumping test been done to establish it? (very much doubt it)

a lot of ground water in Thailand is very high in iron - could be problems with blocking of the return system.
many well installations in Thailand allow considerable sand to pass with the pumped water resulting in down-stream problems.
as pointed out an effective return well system doesn't allow for all the supply water to be returned.

Many unknowns to its viability.

And doesn't answer the point - is it allowed in Thailand - maybe, maybe not, who cares ?
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby gliffaes » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:04 pm

Ians wrote:sometimeswoodworker.

Thanks for the link - http://bit.ly/1rclOJv, very interesting discussion - and clearly shows that not all US states approve the discharge back into the aquifer, why?
It also understandably points out that for a low permeability aquifer a return well may not be effective, raises the question - does the OP know the permeability of the aquifer his wells are installed in - has a correctly installed and monitored draw-down pumping test been done to establish it? (very much doubt it)

a lot of ground water in Thailand is very high in iron - could be problems with blocking of the return system.
many well installations in Thailand allow considerable sand to pass with the pumped water resulting in down-stream problems.
as pointed out an effective return well system doesn't allow for all the supply water to be returned.

Many unknowns to its viability.

And doesn't answer the point - is it allowed in Thailand - maybe, maybe not, who cares ?


In Thailand few care and the ones in power dont unless it involves $$$$$.
personally I see this cooling method as an over complex way of keeping a house cool.
As posted in the water thread recently my water contained zero iron which I was very pleased about .
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:11 am

In Alaska at this time.

Anyone know how to make my Pictures available to all?
If you do please contact me. Or leave instructions here. Someone mentioned a website I could post to and leave a link in my signature but I can't find it now.

My builder has finished the walls of 8" x 8" x 2' light weight, white Q-con Type Brick, the walls are about 15' high.
The brick is also on the ground of the home and Patio. They are not Q-con but rather Koon Thai block ?????

I will be having GeoJerry help with my Geothermic Hydronic cooling system and air flow Calculations and sizing. I think so anyway.
I found him here http://www.geojerry.com/index.html

I did get a 2' x 43' CULVERT installed for the air channel. The concrete culvert was a bear to set in place under all the footings, by hand.
After installing the trench was then filled with concrete To completely seal the shaft and stabilize where we dug under the foundation's, I will have a lot of fun experamenting with this.

This year I will be having the interior Spray Foamed. 6" under the Ceiling, 3" on the walls and 2" under the slab (on top of the brick).
Wanted more but its very expensive. I will build the PEX tube system on a welded wire frame hung from the rafters and laid on the floor.
Then I will pore the ground floor slab. Next will be an interior wall of the thin thai gray bricks, filling the gap behind with concrete
around the PEX and wire.

If I get that all done I will consider it a success.
Skip
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:59 pm

AK49 wrote:In Alaska at this time.

Anyone know how to make my Pictures available to all?
If you do please contact me. Or leave instructions here. Someone mentioned a website I could post to and leave a link in my signature but I can't find it now.



I use Flickr or my own server the links are under
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby BKKBILL » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:36 am

Drop Box should be able to help, upload your photos make that file public post the link in your building story.

https://www.dropbox.com/en/
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:36 pm

I am uploading all my Pic's to dropbox now _ About 2 hr's worth.
When it is done I will figure out how to make a folder and make it public and post a Link.
I have more then you'll want to look at so will have to sort through them and then try to comment so its more understandable.
Have to go to work now so maybe tomorrow. Come to think maybe this week. haha
Thanks for the help both of you. I had drop box but diden't think of it for this purpose.
Wow just figured how to add an attachment.
Pics soon
AK49
Attachments
Frount Door's Measure.JPG
Frount of home concept drawing. A lot changed but still basically the same.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:29 pm

Hi Everyone, Boy time flies doesn't it.
Well an Update
I have built a home of Q-con or super block, whatever same same haha
Now I want to tile everything. Anyone have info on that?
Do I stucco first? What should we use for attachment regular mortar????
Tnks for any info in advance

PS used the 20cm x 20cm x 60c block But if doing again I'd use 2 - 7.5cm with air gap aproxamatly 5cm and turn one flat about every 4 courses CHEEPER!
Used this technique on my 3rd floor. Worked great

The big ones cost me 74 Baht each and the thiner ones are about 20 Baht each. still end with about R-8 wall. For about 1/3 less
I see the price has come down a little. Only here 3mo a year. bought mine about3 years ago (Or the builder got his share haha)
The freestanding walls are 4.5m high

The second floor is on pillars disconnected from the walls by 8" and the 3rd floor is on the central pillars about 5m x 7m and the roof slopes from that.

But then I had 4" (10cm) of Spray foam applied to the walls inside and built a thai block wall about 10cm out from the foam, with PEX tubing in the gap. - also in the slab
Then filled the gap with concrete around the tubing. So now the 2nd floor is attached to the inner wall, With thai brick below and above.

Drilled 4 wells 6" - couldn't find a rotary drill rig here so only 30m deep. Water temp 79-80 F - 26-27 C
Used a remote swimming pool temperature sensor to measure at the bottom.

This tubing will carry ground water (About 80 Farenhite 27 Celsius in my area 100' or 30M down) Average Air temp my area 120 F - 50 C
Det Udom Ubonratchathane
Ok right now 27-30 but summertime 45-50 in the shade more times then not.
My thinking was what, I needed to work against.
Sorry for not being more specific.

I did have a 2' Concrete Culvert berried below the 60cm x 1m footings from my Patio to the back of the shop to build an air to air heat exchanger. 9.7m center to center of the 90 uprights on each end.
I think I will put 14 - 4" aluminum dryer vent pipes in this culvert for the Ingoing Air with the outgoing air exiting around them. This will be next years project.

For my roof I used two layers separated by the 3" x 3" steel square tube. Second sheet applied from inside building. There is air flow between the sheets of SunTie Galvanized roofing because of the Raised crimping the steel sheet. Air goes in behind the gutters and out around the 3rd floor which is a sun deck. Or was as I've now put a roof over it.
Then in the house I had 6" of Urethane Foam applied to the inner sheet of steel on the roof.
I took a thermo meter to the outer and inner sheet. Before application of foam.
Outer read 179 F - Inner 161 F

So my intention is that internal should be 28C year round.
If I want cooler I'll use the air to air if it works or AirCon but should be cheeper then trying to cool a Thai built home.
Even without doors and windows in place, building is quite a bit cooler inside.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:12 pm

AK49 wrote:Hi Everyone, Boy time flies doesn't it.
Well an Update
I have built a home of Q-con or super block, whatever same same haha
Now I want to tile everything. Anyone have info on that?
Do I stucco first? What should we use for attachment regular mortar????
Tnks for any info in advance

PS used the 20cm x 20cm x 60c block But if doing again I'd use 2 - 7.5cm with air gap aproxamatly 5cm and turn one flat about every 4 courses CHEEPER!
Used this technique on my 3rd floor. Worked great

The big ones cost me 74 Baht each and the thiner ones are about 20 Baht each. still end with about R-8 wall. For about 1/3 less
I see the price has come down a little. Only here 3mo a year. bought mine about3 years ago (Or the builder got his share haha)
The freestanding walls are 4.5m high

The second floor is on pillars disconnected from the walls by 8" and the 3rd floor is on the central pillars about 5m x 7m and the roof slopes from that.

But then I had 4" (10cm) of Spray foam applied to the walls inside and built a thai block wall about 10cm out from the foam, with PEX tubing in the gap. - also in the slab
Then filled the gap with concrete around the tubing. So now the 2nd floor is attached to the inner wall, With thai brick below and above.

Drilled 4 wells 6" - couldn't find a rotary drill rig here so only 30m deep. Water temp 79-80 F - 26-27 C
Used a remote swimming pool temperature sensor to measure at the bottom.

This tubing will carry ground water (About 80 Farenhite 27 Celsius in my area 100' or 30M down) Average Air temp my area 120 F - 50 C
Det Udom Ubonratchathane
Ok right now 27-30 but summertime 45-50 in the shade more times then not.
My thinking was what, I needed to work against.
Sorry for not being more specific.

I did have a 2' Concrete Culvert berried below the 60cm x 1m footings from my Patio to the back of the shop to build an air to air heat exchanger. 9.7m center to center of the 90 uprights on each end.
I think I will put 14 - 4" aluminum dryer vent pipes in this culvert for the Ingoing Air with the outgoing air exiting around them. This will be next years project.

For my roof I used two layers separated by the 3" x 3" steel square tube. Second sheet applied from inside building. There is air flow between the sheets of SunTie Galvanized roofing because of the Raised crimping the steel sheet. Air goes in behind the gutters and out around the 3rd floor which is a sun deck. Or was as I've now put a roof over it.
Then in the house I had 6" of Urethane Foam applied to the inner sheet of steel on the roof.
I took a thermo meter to the outer and inner sheet. Before application of foam.
Outer read 179 F - Inner 161 F

So my intention is that internal should be 28C year round.
If I want cooler I'll use the air to air if it works or AirCon but should be cheeper then trying to cool a Thai built home.
Even without doors and windows in place, building is quite a bit cooler inside.
AK49

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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:51 pm

Your thermometer is delusional, a roof temperature of 81.6C is impossible in Thailand, it is just possible that if its painted with a black heat absorbing paint it just might get somewhere near that.
An average air temperature 0f 50 C is equally impossible anywhere even in Thailand, even a peak of 50 is extremely rare if ever seen.

The record high for Thailand is a temperature of 44.6 °C (112.3 °F) Mae Hong Son 28 April 2016

You are unlucky with ground water temperature of 27 C at 30M in northeastern Thailand, it should be at least 5 degrees lower than that.

I can't find your roofing materials on google. Your wall insulation would have cost 1,260 Baht per Sq M and the roof insulation 1,890 Baht per Sq Metre, or more than 6 times the cost of a single layer roof of ColourBond, so rather expensive.

You can get 7.5cm blocks for under 15 Baht if you hunt around, buy truck full quantities and get them from the factory.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:35 pm

AK49 wrote:Hi Everyone, Boy time flies doesn't it.
Well an Update
I have built a home of Q-con or super block, whatever same same haha
Now I want to tile everything. Anyone have info on that?
Do I stucco first? What should we use for attachment regular mortar????
Tnks for any info in advance



Pages 14 and on in my build has the details

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4890&start=210
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Andyfteeze » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:55 pm

before tiling wet areas, i would put a water proof membrane around the wet area. Do not grout corners, it should be finished with a mastic sealant.
Run a bead of mastic along the line to be sealed, small spray of mildly soapy water then run a large ice cream stick along the seal in one motion. Its a far far better finish than your fingers, lol. (practice it a few times , its not rocket science but very effective). Clean up with a razer when its dry.

80c measurement is possible. it may be 44c in the shade, but my guess is the roof is not in the shade. The tiles/tin roof will absorb a considerable amount of energy until saturated then reflect or radiate back any excess energy being supplied. Just using a bit of logic, if 50% is radiated back thats 50% more energy around the " barrier". Not knowing the finer details, i would say its not totally an unreasonable assumption.

another isuue i would recommend people read about is heat mass. Having your slab firmly on the ground means the slab is radiating heat down to the earth, ie the earth is a heat sink. The earth /slab would then be a relatively constant 20c. Then if the house is reasonably well insulated, the temperatures inside will be a lot more stable, meaning less aircon usage.
Having the slab sitting on the beam high above the ground, means you are putting an insulation barrier between the slab and ground. The slab will tend to sit at the ambient temperature. The slab has nowhere to radiate except up. You need to overcome a bit of inertia to cool the house down because you have to cool the slab first. It means the aircon needs to cycle a lot more at start.
Not saying its totally right or wrong, but a better way is to understand the factors at play.

Passive cooling, hydronic/thermal or what ever is not in my mind a better approach. Ask your self the question, whats more important, keeping cool or water wastage?
Aquafiers are drying up all over the world. water shortages nearly came home to roost last year here in thailand. Wasting it would worry me a lot.
If the house is well built, well insulated, the minimal aircon you use is the less of two evils in my mind. I would imagine the cost of the pump running constantly would be much more expensive than a good aircon unit. But thats only my opinion. i hope it works for you.

I should add, your walls upstairs are great, you have thermal mass where its usefull. Once it cools inside it will take a long time to heat up. AND vise versa
Using water to cool to 27-28c however wouldnt enthuse me at all, lol. i like 24-25c.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:32 pm

Andyfteeze wrote:
80c measurement is possible. it may be 44c in the shade, but my guess is the roof is not in the shade. The tiles/tin roof will absorb a considerable amount of energy until saturated then reflect or radiate back any excess energy being supplied. Just using a bit of logic, if 50% is radiated back thats 50% more energy around the " barrier". Not knowing the finer details, i would say its not totally an unreasonable assumption.


From experience a high of 61c was very unpleasant (blue top roof so almost the worst colour) and not tolerable to be under for more than a very short time.
Without seeing evidence proving the claim I still state that 80c for a normal metal roof is impossible, it would cause 2nd to 3rd degree burns in less than a second. The claimed lower 71c is also virtually impossibly high and would also cause 2nd degree burns in a short time, and a drop of only 10c remarkable little. I have a drop of 25c from the highest temperature using the cheapest foil. There is an extensive thread on the subject if you want to check

Most probably the measuring instrument was faulty.

Human skin burns to varying degrees of severity as the applied temperature rises. Humans begin to feel a burning pain when skin temperature rises to 111 degrees Fahrenheit, with first-degree burns developing at 118 F. More severe burns occur at higher temperatures. An applied heat of 131 degrees Fahrenheit causes second-degree burns on exposed skin. Pain receptors overload and become numb at a temperature of 140 F. At 162 F, human tissue is destroyed on contact. The entire range of burn temperatures, from the first appearance of pain to instant destruction, falls well below 212 F, the boiling point of water.
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