Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby Rimtalay » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:17 pm

Hi Canopy,
You see most people do not understand passive design and think that AAC blocks are good for a house.
QUOTE "Thick AAC blocks are a good way since they provide exceptional thermal properties and are certified for load bearing. They're light and effective for insulation but thats all thats going for them.

"If you want a cool house then high thermal mass is your objective, so think twice before using AAC blocks. "

Autoclaved aerated concrete blocks were developed well over seventy years ago in Europe, but are a relatively recent marketing development in Thailand. They are always an option, but understand that you cannot have effective insulation AND considerate thermal mass at the same time. Countless air pockets throughout these blocks accentuate insulation value while cutting back on material costs, shipping weight, and thermal mass. In conventional High-R construction, AAC blocks have a place, but if you want a truly sustainable design passive solar home, choose more conventional high thermal mass. Concrete block gives you a much stronger and higher thermal mass home. Autoclaved aerated concrete cannot be mostly air while at the same time be just as strong and have the same thermal mass as solid concrete - it just doesn't happen.

If I drop one of my blocks onto an AAC block it will crush it to dust, it will shatter a normal Thai cement block to pieces if dropped from 1 metre.
Whilst AAC blocks are claimed to be load bearing, I wouldn't trust my steel trusses and tile roof to sit on them, and heaven help you in a earthquake situation. A properly built house using concrete and rebar is far far stronger, although most Thai column and beam constructed houses don't come close to the mark either.

Thermal mass can be effectively employed in buildings to increase occupants' thermal comfort conditions. PDFhttp://www.yourbuilding.org/library/DES04.pdf
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby pipoz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:51 pm

My house is pretty cool inside so far. Yes I know it it is not June - July - August, yet

All my inner skin walls were built with a 150 mm thick concrete block, (laid on Pluvex DMP) except for several bedroom divide walls, which are double skin red brick (they only face internally). Outer wall skin is a 70 mm Concrete block, with a 50 mm air gap between the two block work skins. Both the Inner and outer block faces have 20 mm thick render.

The Eaves on three sides, namely, South, West and East are 1500 mm overhang. On the same tree sides, trees are planted to shade the walls from whatever direct sun they might receive. Combined this with 2.9 to 3.1 meter high ceilings, narrow windows on the south & north elevations, plus the southern main entrance door set well back from the eave edge so that it never receives direct sunlight on the glass and a 30 Degree roof pitch.

I check the surface on the inner walls when I am back and they are always very cool with no sign of heat transfer in from the outer block skin, at this stage. When I get to lock up stage, I will start measuring the temperature inside each room.

Have committed to five six speed ceiling fans so far, and am now looking at what air conditions I will put where, but may wait until June-July, to see, what I really need

So far so cool

My view is that you can't beat a double skin wall, whether it be block or brick. I grew up in one (a double brick cavity wall house), in Australia, in the some very hot summers, with air conditioners (just ceiling fans) and all I can say is that it worked well for me. The climate in parts of Australia, is not much different to that in Thailand, in my humble view.

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:08 pm

Rimtalay wrote:I must disagree with your comments about the house being stifling in summer. I agree that I'm not talking about bricks, however Rod mentioned that he was an Aussie builder so I'm sure he knows all about concrete blocks.

Ah, so you did read that part where Rod said he was an Aussie builder, but you skipped the part where he said he wanted to know about BRICKS, not blocks.
You actually remind me of another poster who talked a lot about environmental sustainability, solar passive cooling and other "new generation" stuff which was totally off topic as well and he knew very little of what he spoke about too.
The rest of the "stuff" you mentioned has no bearing on Load bearing, Cavity brickwork, it's just waffle.
The way of the future as you call it has been around for over 50 years, and strange as it may seem, it is taught in some universities here and even my Thai draftsman was conversant with it.
Australian Universities have always been at the forfront of keeping heat in the home to a minimum during summer, it is not a revolutionary new thing, it has beeen around for years.
I was born and raised in the NT and you're lecturing me about heat......bah.
You sound just like a poster called "arranp". I hope you're not going to try and take over threads that a great deal of thought and work were put into like he/she did by going off on tangents the whole time.
Read what the man wrote who started the thread.
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby BKKBILL » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:46 pm

I know Queensland can have highs of over 40C most months of the year it can also be very cold with minus temperatures recorded in March, April, May, June, July, August, September and October.
Hardly applicable to the climate in Thailand generally hot and humid across most of the country throughout most of the year. I have not been in a house here that had central heating so that is not the problem, getting rid of the heat is, but then if you had read what has already been commented on many times you would know that

While the article on HTM construction was interesting you forgot to post some of the requirement:

Block and poured-in-place concrete homes and businesses can be found in every town in the world. Add exterior wall insulation for heating and cooling retention, wing insulation to keep the pad and perimeter dry, shading details for the summer months, and properly sloped glazing for optimal passive solar heating performance in winter months... and you have an HTM. Just like any house, you take what free solar gain there is available and supplement the rest. 'Form follows Function' the more passive and sustainable you wish for the house plan to perform. It is vital with an HTM to include ALL of the necessary 'systems' and construction details, not just select some of them. That's why you may find well-respected local builders and architects quite certain that "an HTM will not work here". Usually they are simply not speaking from experience. If it is an actual building being critiqued, the architect either failed to include a basic 'system' like drapes and shade cloth, or did not install thermal breaks between foundation and driveway or sidewalks, or did not provide for proper roof drainage, or simply did not install wing insulation around the foundation perimeter.

I would also like to get in on the bet.

So Roger, I'll bet the home that I build in Thailand will be far cooler in summer that any other Thai built home in Thailand when the aircon is not running. Not only will our home be far cooler than any other Thai home it will be designed by an Aussie architect who is fully aware of the latest environmental sustainability and passive solar designs.

Oh, one more thing we do not have air conditioning nor require it in our build in Mae Taeng unlike BKK where it was a necessity if you wanted to sleep.

But as RR so rightfully stated,

"You actually remind me of another poster who talked a lot about environmental sustainability, solar passive cooling and other "new generation" stuff which was totally off topic as well and he knew very little of what he spoke about too.
The rest of the "stuff" you mentioned has no bearing on Load bearing, Cavity brickwork, it's just waffle."
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby pipoz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:22 pm

Try Darwin and the top end of Western Australia

Also the top end of Queensland, i.e from Cairns to Townsville doesn't get cold, certainly not when I was there. The nights where occasionally cool (a few times), virtually identical to what I have experienced in Udon Thani when I was there in December and February. Also the humidity and day time temperatures, in Cairns to Townsville during the wetter month, were the same as Udon Thani, during June to August.

Sorry BKKBIlL, I would have to disagree with your view, "Hardly applicable to the climate in Thailand", as the climate there, is so close to that in Thailand (certainly that up in Udon Thani from my past four years in and out of the place, six times a year) that you couldn't split the difference between them.

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby Rimtalay » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:35 pm

Hi pipoz, pleased to see that someone gets the gist of what I'm saying. Unfortunately the 150mm blocks you're using are not available around the area where I'm building otherwise I may have used them rather than having to make the blocks. Its pretty obvious that not many here know about dry-stacking otherwise they wouldn't be so quick to use the Thai method of columns and beams with infill. At least my Thai builder is prepared to learn something new and is excited about trying a new method of building that is so different to what he currently practices.

Roger, I'm not here for a catfight, I joined coolhouse a couple of days ago to pick up ideas from those who have more experience of building in Thailand than me. Then again I also have some knowledge that I'm happy to share. Its worth doing a little research on dry-stacking then you might better understand the benefits.
I may as well cancel my coolhouse membership if this what members have to put up with. I've got better things to do.
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:44 pm

Rimtalay wrote:Roger, I'm not here for a catfight, I joined coolhouse a couple of days ago to pick up ideas from those who have more experience of building in Thailand than me.

Then let me be the first to point you in the right direction viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1070 this is one of the "better" builds here, which is why it stays near the top of the building page. And if you want correct techniques with photos and in depth discussion there is my build: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1864 or even better still the is Max and Bee's build: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1970 You might like to read the three of them first, there is a wealth of knowledge in all three, including all the mistakes, what local labour is capable of, where to buy the necessities from etc etc etc
Most people who come here read a few of the building stories first, that way they don't walk in half cocked, take over a thread that is totally unrelated to the topic heading and then proceeding to pontificate about your off topic post and then spit the dummy out without even listening.
This is a building forum, a serious place for builders and for people who are just learning the ropes in Thailand. It would be nice if you treated it as such. If you want to start a separate topic other than Load bearing, cavity brickwork and instead start one on blockwork, then feel free to do so.
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby pipoz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:27 pm

Rimtalay wrote:Hi pipoz, pleased to see that someone gets the gist of what I'm saying. Unfortunately the 150mm blocks you're using are not available around the area where I'm building otherwise I may have used them rather than having to make the blocks. Its pretty obvious that not many here know about dry-stacking otherwise they wouldn't be so quick to use the Thai method of columns and beams with infill. At least my Thai builder is prepared to learn something new and is excited about trying a new method of building that is so different to what he currently practices.

Roger, I'm not here for a catfight, I joined coolhouse a couple of days ago to pick up ideas from those who have more experience of building in Thailand than me. Then again I also have some knowledge that I'm happy to share. Its worth doing a little research on dry-stacking then you might better understand the benefits.
I may as well cancel my coolhouse membership if this what members have to put up with. I've got better things to do.


Don't worry these blocks were not around too much when I got to Udon Thani four years ago and certainly not to this recent quality the came accross. Your block making actually looks quite good from what I saw last night in the photos.

I simply opted to go with a double skin block wall, because I felt more comfortable with it and wanted to shape the outer wall profile, plus I actually considered it to be a more sound/stronger system than the light weight block system. I also initially planned to run my electrical conduit services on the outer face of the inner block skin.

These reasons and the fact that I was not on site and the three guys I dragged up from Buriram knew how to lay concrete blocks, but not AC ones, led me to choose a build system that they were familiar with - a block wall system. Whats the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

PS. I could have done with some Lintel block here, but couldn't find anything close. Plus I love those 400 square ones, now those are something I could use in my design

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby BKKBILL » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:57 pm

pipoz wrote:Sorry BKKBIlL, I would have to disagree with your view, "Hardly applicable to the climate in Thailand", as the climate there, is so close to that in Thailand (certainly that up in Udon Thani from my past four years in and out of the place, six times a year) that you couldn't split the difference between them.

pipoz


No need to be sorry pipoz I was going by the maximum recorded lows obviously that was a poor choice. Just wondering is central heating use in new construction in Queensland?

I think your post and beam block wall with air gap is a good way to build here as Thais are familiar with this type of building. I did the same but used double 7.5 Qcon blocks. With this type of build it's the air gap that does most of the insulating.

As for load bearing brickwork not in Thailand, load bearing blockwork is a different story if rebar is used in conjunction with filling all cavities with concrete. Of course without a thermal break insulation would have to be installed somewhere.

For anyone starting a build in Thailand this statement is nonsense,

"If you want a cool house then high thermal mass is your objective, so think twice before using AAC blocks. "
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby canopy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:56 am

You see most people do not understand passive design and think that AAC blocks are good for a house.

You might be one of them. In select climates, a high thermal mass and heat shifting/flywheel effect is excellent and is popular in SW America for instance due to the hot days and cold nights. However, Thailand isn't appropriate because days are hot and nights warm. I've been in high thermal mass houses in Thailand and when the temp drops and becomes pleasant in the evening, the inside of the house is still unbearably hot because of all the stored heat you can't get rid of. You can open wide all the doors and windows and run fans at full blast and it stays sweltering hot until after 9pm. I don't find this massive heat shifting into the evening beneficial or something I would ever want in a house here.

Whilst AAC blocks are claimed to be load bearing, I wouldn't trust my steel trusses and tile roof to sit on them, and heaven help you in a earthquake situation

When people toss out a strength difference, it always comes off sounding like sour grapes. One could make a solid 3 meter reinforced concrete wall like a bunker and claim all other walls are not as strong and go on to say they wouldn't trust anything else in an earthquake. AAC has ample strength for all house building purposes, even in earthquake zones. I trust companies like Hebel in Germany (parent of q-con) who design these blocks and the specifications for load bearing purposes. This is from their specification:

The thermal performance of a building
depends on a number of factors such
as orientation and size and aspect of
windows. The R-Value of walls and floors
can significantly affect the energy-rating
outcome of dwellings. A 250mm Hebel®
PowerBlock™ has 3 times the R-Value
of a cavity brick wall (BCA Vol. 2 Figure
3.12.1.3). The use of Hebel®
in walls and
floors will provide increased thermal
performance
that can allow more
flexibility with other design aspects of
a building.

Feel free to contact Hebel to work out why your claims don't seem to hold water. I find their information more sound than what someone may say on a forum.
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby MGV12 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:06 pm

Rimtalay wrote:

If I drop one of my blocks onto an AAC block it will crush it to dust,


Quite simply a complete exaggeration.

Rimtalay wrote: it will shatter a normal Thai cement block to pieces if dropped from 1 metre.


I can shatter those by simply stepping on them and I am not overweight.

Rimtalay wrote:Whilst AAC blocks are claimed to be load bearing, I wouldn't trust my steel trusses and tile roof to sit on them,


Then you have a problem understanding the capabilities of [correctly manufactured] AAC blocks. In Thailand AAC blocks are accepted for load-bearing duties by qualified engineers and those who issue building permits. The minimum width allowed here is 20cm [as all blocks sold as AAC are not necessarily up to standard] however in other countries with more stringent codes 10cm AAC is accepted as being load-bearing. Whatever steel trusses or tile you place on top of it.

Rimtalay wrote:and heaven help you in a earthquake situation.

AAC has been used extensively in areas with seismic activity with great success. Many buildings that suffered in such zones [Japan for instance] have been rebuilt using AAC blocks

Rimtalay wrote:A properly built house using concrete and rebar is far far stronger,

Rigid strength does not in itself make a structure earthquake resistant ... flexibility does. AAC is full of air bubbles and air is flexible ... walls may crack but structures built from AAC generally stay standing longer; far more likely you and your loved-ones survive an earthquake as a result of the building not collapsing on top of you ... as low-rise rigid structures are more prone to do.

Rimtalay wrote:although most Thai column and beam constructed houses don't come close to the mark either.


Correct but for a multitude of reasons that have nothing to do with AAC.

Suggest you do some research ... as suggested by other members ... before making further statements like those above. Plenty of information available via Google and other search engines.

And that's not even touching on thermal properties, fire resistance, acoustic properties, ease of construction ....................................

Rimtalay wrote:"If you want a cool house then high thermal mass is your objective, so think twice before using AAC blocks"


:?: Please post the link to that quote and following para ... https://www.google.com/search?q=%22If+y ... AAC+blocks .... it doesn't appear to be the one you posted at the bottom.

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby FT10toLOS » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:56 pm

Thanks to all those that made a contribution to this thread.
My apologies for not getting back to the thread sooner.
While I did mention brickwork in the OP, I was looking for methods getting away from the Beam and Column construction predominately used in Thailand, including blockwork.
As well as the thermal advantages, another motive was to keep more control over the process. Plenty of options presented here to consider.
I will eventually be based in Prasat Surin.
Thanks again.
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby FT10toLOS » Thu May 14, 2015 8:17 pm

I was going to start another thread but this is still relevant to the topic so far.

I am currently in Thailand and my girlfriend casually mentions her friends sister makes bricks!!!!! TITS. "Oh really sweetheart, can we go look?
I have seen them on the net before. They are called "soil" bricks on some sites and one site describes them as a fast building technique for third world countries. (250mm long,123mm wide and 100mm high) 40 per m2.

She makes about 1,000 a day, pressed using a dry pack mix of a soil type material, fine aggregate and cement. (don't know the ratios as yet)

They are a dry stack brick, with capacity to accept vertical and horizontal rebar and allowing application of grout or mortar progressively as the wall goes up.

The term soil brick conjures an idea of a crumbly product but with the addition of cement, the product is hard and durable, similar to what I've used in Australia. With the addition of grout, this makes for a very sound STRUCTURAL wall, I imagine.

The quality appears much stronger than the 70mm "cinderblocks" I've seen. I suspect one could simply up the cement content for a more durable product as desired.

I have seen some with decorative panels.

Has anyone used these or have any information about their use?

Regards
Rod
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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby FT10toLOS » Thu May 14, 2015 8:19 pm

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Re: Load bearing, cavity brickwork.

Postby pipoz » Fri May 15, 2015 5:24 pm

They look good. Could easily use them for a BBQ area

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