wall insulation

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wall insulation

Postby preacher » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:57 pm

I am looking for some material for insulating a double cavity brick wall, with a cavity of 5 centimeters.

So far all big and small shops like Homepro, Global House and Thaiwatsadu only seem to have for insulating rooms, not for walls. I can find two products on internet termacoustic from SCG and a rockwool product, but no shops that sell these products. Finally found one company that might supply it, in BKK: insulationhouses , but would like to have some more options. The more there I live in the Phitsanulok/Uttardit/Phrae region.

Does anyone knows of a company that has wall insulation products at affordable prices?
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Re: wall insulation

Postby pipoz » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:03 pm

preacher wrote:I am looking for some material for insulating a double cavity brick wall, with a cavity of 5 centimeters.

So far all big and small shops like Homepro, Global House and Thaiwatsadu only seem to have for insulating rooms, not for walls. I can find two products on internet termacoustic from SCG and a rockwool product, but no shops that sell these products. Finally found one company that might supply it, in BKK: insulationhouses , but would like to have some more options. The more there I live in the Phitsanulok/Uttardit/Phrae region.

Does anyone knows of a company that has wall insulation products at affordable prices?


Don't insulate the cavity with a material, just leave an air gap between the two wall skins.

I did that with mine, leaving a 30 mm air space between the block skins and the rooms are very cool with no heat transfer from the external wall block skin to the inside wall block skin. Refer my build, "Udon Thani Happy House" Pages 9 - 14

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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:53 am

If you are going to seal the wall completely, you can use foam sheets. this will raise the R rating of the wall by a factor of 3 over a cavity. Just leaving a cavity is lazy thinking in 2015. it was standard practice 40yrs ago in AU, but people are more informed these days, I hope.
We can do better.

4" face brick r= .44 4' brickface r= .44
1" cavity r= 1.00 double sided foil r = .6
total r rating of wall 1.88 total r rating of wall = 2.48

4' face brick r=.44 4' brickface r=.44
1" foam r= 5 - 6.25 1.5R batts r=1.5
total r rating of wall 5.88 - 7.13 total r rating of wall r= 2.38 ( that's all you can fit in a 1" cavity.)

Foil best bang for buck, but foam best by a mile.
facts speak for themselves.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:55 am

believe it or not, there were spaces between the figures, even in preview. ahhhhh.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:10 am

While foam may be the best getting foam that beasties won't eat or nest in is not cheap. They love expanded polystyrene. :roll:
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:42 am

that's why I qualified it with "if you seal the wall completely". I was waiting for you sometime, lol.
But I also gave other options, ie Foil. I just presented the facts, the rest is up to the individual to make their own risk assessment.
Just leaving a gap is lazy thinking. Even basic foil gives 50% better r rating.
Better still , use AAc blocks. r=2. you can see the muliplyer effect. AAc dual skin with foil r= 5.88, foam r= 9-11.
But you need to keep it in perspective, windows and doors are only going to be around r= 2 - 3. So a wall rating of 9 is a bit over the top.
just using common sense.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:59 am

Hummmm, seal the cavity completely, an excellent aim but very very difficult to achieve, and more difficult to keep sealed.

I was not disparaging your ideas just pointing out that if you want foam that polystyrene is not a good choice and PU is. Just ask Fred about his parking area roof.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby preacher » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:05 am

Thanks for the replies so far.

I settled for "rockwool" and the likes products. Foam is expensive and has the problem that most companies only have experience in spraying roofs, not in injecting foam into a cavity wall. So I fear it might not be done properly. (My wife had an offer for 300 baht a m2 for the roof from a local company, which I consider a good offer, but don't know about the company being any good).).
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:47 am

You are right sometime about the vermin problem. Sealing the wall is an issue. But I did the calculations for different materials to give a perspective on what you can achieve with different materials. It shows what is possible. But I also think it needs perspective. Maybe I didn't make that clear. Foil seems a good addition as well as the rockwool. Much better than an air gap, don't you think?
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Re: wall insulation

Postby pipoz » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:14 pm

Andyfteeze wrote:Just leaving a gap is lazy thinking. Even basic foil gives 50% better r rating.

just using common sense.


Disagree in part. Its not lazy, it is all relevant to how you go about designing the rest of the house and whether the insulating of that cavity adds further thermal property/benefit that you need, for its cost.

The Sustainability Design approach, just doesn't consider one building element or one building material at a time. It considers the combination of them and the building envelope as a whole (along with a number of other aspects) and so where you should best spend your money to achieve the maximum thermal gains/benefits to keep the inside areas cool or warm, whatever the case may be.

My cavity walls are sealed top bottom (built to the underside on a concrete roof ring beam) and sides ( built-tied to 250 mm square concrete columns) and then rendered 20 mm thick inside and outside and will shortly be ventilated whilst still being vermin proof. As such is no heat exchange or heat transfer of any consequence, from the outer wall skin to the inner wall skin, so in my case little to be gained by spending the money on insulating the cavity. I have spent it on other other areas. I did my temperature checks last week on the wall surface during the days and night last week.

Granted if you are just looking at the external wall in isolation and not considering other design matters which contribute to thermal gains, such as, the direction which your house will face, positioning of your living areas, choice of building materials for the envelope, facade glass areas & glass type, eave overhangs, amount/hours of direct sun on the walls, external shading to walls, then yes, throw some insulation in your wall cavity.

The (or my) objective was to achieve/maintain a reasonably consistent room temperature environment inside/throughout the house when occupying them, i.e. for living areas during the day-early evening and for bedrooms during the nights, unless of course you sleep during the day. There are many way to do this and some are more cost effective than others

Just my two cents worth :lol:

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Re: wall insulation

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:56 pm

I don't think any of you have read the question:
preacher wrote:I am looking for some material for insulating a double cavity brick wall, with a cavity of 5 centimeters.

The walls are already built, the gap is just 5 centimetres. You can't use any of the materials already mentioned except for foam and the Thais certainly don't know how to do that properly.
If the second wall is built then using anything is a lost cause.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby preacher » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:13 pm

Rockwool and SCG have the products I mentioned in 5cm thickness. The normal roof insulation is indeed to thick with a minimum of 75mm, but Thermacoustic from SCG is available in 50mm and so is Thermal Rock from Rockwool.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:36 pm

My English comprehension is a little hazy at times too, but it doesn't say anywhere walls already built.
Well done preacher, you have picked a good product to add to the wall.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby Andyfteeze » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:00 pm

Sorry to tread on your toes pipoz, but if your happy with just an air cavity, that's fine. Not going to dispute that it is effective, but for not much more outlay ie foil, its 50% better. The OP asked for advice on what extra he could do.
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Re: wall insulation

Postby pipoz » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:59 pm

Andyfteeze wrote:Sorry to tread on your toes pipoz, but if your happy with just an air cavity, that's fine. Not going to dispute that it is effective, but for not much more outlay ie foil, its 50% better. The OP asked for advice on what extra he could do.
CHL


It was only my little pink toe, so no probelm

I supposed my point was if you think about all aspects of the house design at the start, particularly how you go about shielding the walls that face or receive the direct sun, for the majority hours of the day, and protect them as much as you can then the walls become a lesser issue or avenue for transferring heat.

Given it is the direct sun on the wall, that will heat up that outer wall skin, I went about protecting (and considering in the future how to protect) the south side/walls of the House (as a first step), as this is the face that receives most of the direct sun, for most of the days of the year and for the longest period each day, in NE Thailand.

The northern face of the house is less susceptible to direct sun effect, and doesn't get a lot of days/hours of direct sun, yes it get some but will normally cool down by the evening for most days of the year.

On my south side 60% of the painted wall areas is 300 mm thick (block, air gap and block and near on 40% is 400 mm thick. It doesn't cost any more to widen the air gap once you decide on the principal of having a double skin wall.

The glass area to the bedrooms on either side of the central living area, is an aesthetic decision, but I have several solution in mind.

The central living area where arguably I will be for the majority of the day, is well protected from the effects of the sun.

All I can say is that, last week I was happy with my inside room temperature without running the AC,(and it was quiet warm last week on several days). My surface inside wall temperatures and my center room temperatures (where I would sit/stand), were less than the outside ambient air temperature, during the day and at night, with no help from the fans or the newly installed ACs'

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