slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Almost everything that needs to be said about concrete, cement, hand-mixing, uses and prices has been said on this forum. Please check out the contributions before posting new questions.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL, pattayapope

slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:47 pm

We were renovating our home in Jomtien Beach and we seem to have come across some issues.
The wall build and the beams in them seem so weak. Just thumping them with my bare hand made it break like this.
That cannot be normal right?
Attachments
IMG_8333.JPG
IMG_8330.JPG
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:14 am

dendijk wrote:The wall build and the beams in them seem so weak. Just thumping them with my bare hand made it break like this.
That cannot be normal right?

There are two things that will cause that, the concrete didn't cure properly (mixture) or you have badly rusted rebar in the beams that is terminal. That beam will need to be broken back to the rebar otherwise it will get worse and not support any weight at all. Time to get out the jack hammer.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5250
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:34 am

dendijk wrote:We were renovating our home in Jomtien Beach and we seem to have come across some issues.

I just had a closer look at the second photo and I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it appears they used the wrong sort of "glue" between the superblock, then to mask it they slapped concrete over the column and superblock where they marry. I can't see clearly but it also appears that the rebar they used (if any) was 9mm straight, not deformed.
I also notice crumbling and cracks where the columns and beams meet. If this is the case the engineer from the Or Bor Tor will immediately condemn the building as unsafe.
I think you need to convince the Engineer from your local authority to inspect the whole thing. It may cost a 1,000 Baht to get him there, but he'll give you a detailed report (for free normally) and it's then time to send it to the Consumer Protection Agency who will make the builder (if they can find him) tear down and fix what has been done so far, or they will take him to court on your behalf and get some of the money back (if they can find him). It is probably just one of the only organisations in Thailand that do something constructive.
Even my first builder who was excellent till the floods had changed his name twice before, which means he'd screwed up twice during builds and was hiding. I'm sure if I hadn't been at the build the whole time he would have just done it the "Thai way" in parts, but I used to check everything before giving the nod for the next stage.
I wonder if you could post more photos?
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5250
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:13 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
dendijk wrote:We were renovating our home in Jomtien Beach and we seem to have come across some issues.

I just had a closer look at the second photo and I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it appears they used the wrong sort of "glue" between the superblock, then to mask it they slapped concrete over the column and superblock where they marry. I can't see clearly but it also appears that the rebar they used (if any) was 9mm straight, not deformed.
I also notice crumbling and cracks where the columns and beams meet. If this is the case the engineer from the Or Bor Tor will immediately condemn the building as unsafe.
I think you need to convince the Engineer from your local authority to inspect the whole thing. It may cost a 1,000 Baht to get him there, but he'll give you a detailed report (for free normally) and it's then time to send it to the Consumer Protection Agency who will make the builder (if they can find him) tear down and fix what has been done so far, or they will take him to court on your behalf and get some of the money back (if they can find him). It is probably just one of the only organisations in Thailand that do something constructive.
Even my first builder who was excellent till the floods had changed his name twice before, which means he'd screwed up twice during builds and was hiding. I'm sure if I hadn't been at the build the whole time he would have just done it the "Thai way" in parts, but I used to check everything before giving the nod for the next stage.
I wonder if you could post more photos?



Wow thats the best piece of advise i have been given in a week. I am going through it with the wife and will follow the steps as you say.
I really really appreciate your input and will definitely keep you updated. Do you happen to know how they call this engineer in thai at the or bor tor?
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:10 pm

Roger R.

please look at some more of our pictures.
Image 7683 7686 and 7689 are from the carport. The sidebeams are huge in contrast with the front pilars. They have chiseled/drilled the left pilar then to insert pvc pipe for some electricity. During this process the beam has been separated from the pilar they just filled it up and wanted to build to roof on it like this with cpac monier prestige concrete tiles.
I am shitscared that eventually that roof would have fallen on the car or worse my kids playing under that.
Attachments
IMG_7689.jpg
IMG_7686.jpg
IMG_7683.jpg
IMG_7751.jpg
IMG_7740.jpg
IMG_7845.jpg
IMG_7909.jpg
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:09 pm

dendijk wrote:please look at some more of our pictures.

I am amazed that the whole structure has not collapsed yet. You cannot weaken columns, leave exposed rebar protruding for no reason, nor can you insert electrical conduit into columns after the fact. The whole thing has just been slapped together and no care taken, let alone any planning.
Did you have plans?
If you had plans then you take those plans to the approving authority (engineer Or Bor Tor or Tessaban) and drag him out there and show him what has been done.
I can understand why you terminated the contract, just the garage structure alone is unsafe. Make sure you don't put those tiles up.
As for the rest of the "renovations" I would seriously consider restarting it all over again.
The rebar is too close to the surface, it is exposed to the air and will cause concrete cancer. Once that starts the beams and columns will collapse and you'll see cracks at the joints and hear the structure "groan, pop and bang" as it falls apart caused by the weight it cannot carry.
Keep your kids away from the structure and go to the approving authority..... if there was one.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5250
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:31 pm

Hi Roger,

we can just peel of the concrete of the doorway and pulverize it by hand.
About the bar inside i can only comment that you must either be psychic or our builder m.i.a :lol: :lol:
Attachments
IMG_6767.JPG
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby pipoz » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:29 pm

dendijk wrote:Roger R.

please look at some more of our pictures.
Image 7683 7686 and 7689 are from the carport. The sidebeams are huge in contrast with the front pilars. They have chiseled/drilled the left pilar then to insert pvc pipe for some electricity. During this process the beam has been separated from the pilar they just filled it up and wanted to build to roof on it like this with cpac monier prestige concrete tiles.
I am shitscared that eventually that roof would have fallen on the car or worse my kids playing under that.


Hi,

Hard to tell if the connection shown in the attached picture is one of your two front Columns to/supporting the Carport or another supporting the connection of your Carport to you house?, but if it is either, then,

1.If I was you, I would start by digging out around the two footings of the two front columns of your carport structure and see what you have. Its then relatively easy to extend increase the footing area with mass concrete and some reinforcement. If after you have dug a hole around that existing footing you post it, I will suggests how you should do it. This assumes that you do in fact have a pad footing under the base of the Carport Columns and not just some concrete poured around the Columns post

2.The aim is to give yourself a larger area pad footing at the front of the carport, that works with the presumed existing pad footing, under those two front car part columns. Then build on it with some load bearing block work, from the new footing up to the underside of that 450 mm deep carport roof beam, just behind the existing hacked out column face. In this way you will give that concrete roof beam another support to sit on, rather than just relying on that existing connection between the doggy front column and the concrete roof beam, which has been hacked away and filled with mortar.

3.The way he has hacked into those front columns (assuming they are the two front columns) from top to bottom for the conduit, plus the fact that he has hacked out the column concrete just where the roof beam meets the column, (your first two pictures & one of which is attached), leads me to believe that in all likelihood the reinforcement connection at this particular column junction with the beam, is probably suspect or average at best. This will then give that concrete roof beam something extra to sit on (i.e. an adjoining reinforced block column). This is relatively cheap and easy to do, just in case that existing connection does fail. Tying/joining the reinforced concrete block column to the underside of that concrete roof beam is also very easy to do.

Either way that concrete beam above that doggy connection could do with more structural support, as you have too much invested in that Carport structure and roof, plus you are using what looks like a CPAC Concrete tile roof and that weighs a bit

pipoz
Attachments
IMG_7689.jpg
Column to Concrete Beam Connection
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:45 pm

pipoz wrote:
dendijk wrote:Roger R.

please look at some more of our pictures.
Image 7683 7686 and 7689 are from the carport. The sidebeams are huge in contrast with the front pilars. They have chiseled/drilled the left pilar then to insert pvc pipe for some electricity. During this process the beam has been separated from the pilar they just filled it up and wanted to build to roof on it like this with cpac monier prestige concrete tiles.
I am shitscared that eventually that roof would have fallen on the car or worse my kids playing under that.


Hi,

Hard to tell if the connection shown in the attached picture is one of your two front Columns to/supporting the Carport or another supporting the connection of your Carport to you house?, but if it is either, then,

1.If I was you, I would start by digging out around the two footings of the two front columns of your carport structure and see what you have. Its then relatively easy to extend increase the footing area with mass concrete and some reinforcement. If after you have dug a hole around that existing footing you post it, I will suggests how you should do it. This assumes that you do in fact have a pad footing under the base of the Carport Columns and not just some concrete poured around the Columns post

2.The aim is to give yourself a larger area pad footing at the front of the carport, that works with the presumed existing pad footing, under those two front car part columns. Then build on it with some load bearing block work, from the new footing up to the underside of that 450 mm deep carport roof beam, just behind the existing hacked out column face. In this way you will give that concrete roof beam another support to sit on, rather than just relying on that existing connection between the doggy front column and the concrete roof beam, which has been hacked away and filled with mortar.

3.The way he has hacked into those front columns (assuming they are the two front columns) from top to bottom for the conduit, plus the fact that he has hacked out the column concrete just where the roof beam meets the column, (your first two pictures & one of which is attached), leads me to believe that in all likelihood the reinforcement connection at this particular column junction with the beam, is probably suspect or average at best. This will then give that concrete roof beam something extra to sit on (i.e. an adjoining reinforced block column). This is relatively cheap and easy to do, just in case that existing connection does fail. Tying/joining the reinforced concrete block column to the underside of that concrete roof beam is also very easy to do.

Either way that concrete beam above that doggy connection could do with more structural support, as you have too much invested in that Carport structure and roof, plus you are using what looks like a CPAC Concrete tile roof and that weighs a bit

pipoz


Hi Pipoz,

The picture is actual the horizontal beam as shown in the 2 pictures of my original post. The doorway in a wall with blocks. The concrete is of so poor quality that slapping it by bare hand just made it break.
Roger was suspecting straight bar inside and he was right.

About the carport. It has 2 columns/pilars in the front and in the back is attached to the house where the decorative ornaments where first. The welded the rebar there and then poured the beams across. There is alot of paper between the beams and where they connect to the house. Exactly as you say we have been raising the question if it ain't better to pour new columns and beams in the house. Because some beams are very round or have other issues like the front pilar of the carport.

I will add your suggestions and comments to the assesment/report.

Thanks a lot!
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:48 pm

dendijk wrote:we can just peel of the concrete of the doorway and pulverize it by hand.
About the bar inside i can only comment that you must either be psychic or our builder

I'm not your builder, but I can tell you he forgot to add enough cement to the mixture and also forgot to add enough aggregate, which is the reason why it's pealing off in layers.
From the photo I also see he scrimped and saved on rebar. For a beam that size he should have used at least 12 mil (at least four lengths) and he also forgot to use stirrups to hold the rebar in place. All in all I would say he had no idea what he was doing, and he certainly didn't imagine it would support the roof of a garage.
There's a way out of this if you have a big enough area. Get a crane in to lift off the steel and place it to one side. Demolish the columns and beams and start again after you check and make sure you actually have foundations.
Go to the police now, with your better half and lodge a formal complaint. I bet the police will know who he is and where he is. For what he has done he needs to see gaol time...... but don't hold your breath. It saddens me to see structures like this all over Thailand and it needs to stop.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5250
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby thailazer » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:10 am

This thread should hammer home to anyone planning on building here that you need to carefully check out your builders well before you break ground. We heard some horrible stories from references some of the builders gave us. The crew we finally picked, after hearing nothing but positive reviews, worked out great. All the builders have reputations you can find out from the local bamboo telegraph even if they don't give you any info on their past builds.
thailazer
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:55 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:24 am

thailazer wrote:This thread should hammer home to anyone planning on building here that you need to carefully check out your builders well before you break ground. We heard some horrible stories from references some of the builders gave us. The crew we finally picked, after hearing nothing but positive reviews, worked out great. All the builders have reputations you can find out from the local bamboo telegraph even if they don't give you any info on their past builds.



Amen!

Let my generosity, misplaced trust and outright stupidity be a lesson for anybody in the future.

DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT never ever do anything without a well written contract with all details, timeframes, dispute resolutions etc etc inside.
No matter who it is. Your friend, your relatives or just the nice (business)person who seem to want to offer good services to you.
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby pattayapope » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:54 am

dendijk wrote:DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT never ever do anything without a well written contract with all details, timeframes, dispute resolutions etc etc inside.
No matter who it is. Your friend, your relatives or just the nice (business)person who seem to want to offer good services to you.


And make sure you don't pay too much up front so you can stop the work at anytime with limited financial loses.
pattayapope
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Huai Yai Chonburi

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby dendijk » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:29 am

pattayapope wrote:
dendijk wrote:DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT never ever do anything without a well written contract with all details, timeframes, dispute resolutions etc etc inside.
No matter who it is. Your friend, your relatives or just the nice (business)person who seem to want to offer good services to you.


And make sure you don't pay too much up front so you can stop the work at anytime with limited financial loses.



Yeah :oops:

Even if you think that will speed up the process and shows your good will.
He called me his 'absolute model client' in an email.
:D I bet ya. He wishes for 10s of clients like us :D :D
dendijk
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 am

Re: slapping concrete beam with bare hand and braking

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:02 pm

dendijk wrote:Let my generosity, misplaced trust and outright stupidity be a lesson for anybody in the future.

DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT never ever do anything without a well written contract with all details, timeframes, dispute resolutions etc etc inside.
No matter who it is. Your friend, your relatives or just the nice (business)person who seem to want to offer good services to you.

It's a very hard lesson to learn, especially when you've worked so hard to earn the money in the first place, unfortunately Thailand seems to have a few more (bad builders) than other countries, including Farang "builders" who are only here for the take as well. It's the reason most of us opt for labour costs only and buy the materials ourselves and then stay on the job till it's completed.
I take it from your silence that you had no plans. I would still go to the police, no matter how earnestly the police have earnt their appalling reputation, I have nothing but mostly good contacts with them..... besides the usual fines, bad management and thievery.
I currently have two workers laying sand and top soil around my house and my wife and I came back from shopping to find they were both being detained by the Police patrol (I have a Police Red Box) at 1600hrs one afternoon last week until their story checked out. The Police quietly told my wife the nightwatchman (one of the workers) was a great bloke, but the other was a known thief and also a drunk and to lock-up everything after use. It's surprising what the Police actually do know, that has been reported to them earlier.
Trust me you're not the first Farang or local that has been taken for a ride. I had to change my whole way of thinking - I was raised to take a man's word and handshake as sacrosanct and it was a hard habit to break, but having been in Asia for a while soon scrubbed that notion from my brain - now it's check, check check.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5250
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Next

Return to cement, concrete and mortar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests