open sub floor / insulate

Air conditioning, fans, and anything related to keeping it cool, such as insulation. This would include any posts generally discussing how to keep it cool, such as which types of blocks are better insulators.... ideal wall thickness for keeping an A/C house cool, etc.

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open sub floor / insulate

Postby arranp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:26 am

Hello,

I would like to share the following article and am interested in our comments, it says: "in climates where deep earth temperatures contribute to heat gain. In these regions, use open vented floors with high levels of insulation to avoid heat gain."

is it suggesting to insulate the underside of the ground floor? the picture is showing 2000w of heat rising into the house from the open subfloor.

Image

Image
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:26 am

arranp wrote:I would like to share the following article and am interested in our comments, it says

Where is the article? Post the website.
You're always going to get heat gain because of the columns, unless you want to insulate them as well along, with the windows and doors.
What happens on a day that is just stinking hot with no breeze at all? What happens to a house built on the side of a hill? Hot air might rise but what happens if the surrounding air is as hot?
The drawings are also all wrong, the hottest part of the house will be the apex of the roof, not where the roof joins the house.
arranp wrote:the picture is showing 2000w of heat rising into the house from the open subfloor.

2000 "W", what's the "W" for? Or are they suggesting the type of insulation needed?
Please post the site where this information came from.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby arranp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:31 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I would like to share the following article and am interested in our comments, it says

Where is the article? Post the website.
You're always going to get heat gain because of the columns, unless you want to insulate them as well along, with the windows and doors.
What happens on a day that is just stinking hot with no breeze at all? What happens to a house built on the side of a hill? Hot air might rise but what happens if the surrounding air is as hot?
The drawings are also all wrong, the hottest part of the house will be the apex of the roof, not where the roof joins the house.
arranp wrote:the picture is showing 2000w of heat rising into the house from the open subfloor.

2000 "W", what's the "W" for? Or are they suggesting the type of insulation needed?
Please post the site where this information came from.


http://www.yourhome.gov.au/passive-design/passive-cooling
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:31 am

arranp,
You took one part of an Australian site and asked if it would work in Thailand.
I owned a Snowy Home in Cooma that was built off the ground out of wood. The only concrete was the piers it stood on. It was freezing cold in winter and boiling hot in summer. I ripped out all the old insulation in the roof and put in new stuff. I lined all the walls inside with silver foil (both sides) after I had ripped out the fibro sheeting, then used plywood sheets to cover the silver foil after I had lined the walls with insulation.
I lined the bottom of the house with insulation (pink bats) then covered them with silver foil (both sides), then covered that with plywood. It was a mammoth task.
I pulled out the electric heaters, the gas heaters and installed a wood burning stove in the lounge. I installed another between the 3 bedrooms. The house went from freezing cold in the winter to just cold. In the summer it was still hot, very hot, so I ripped off the fibro roof and had a colorbond roof put on, which reduced the temperature in summer.
I spent over $50,000 au on that house, but because it was wood (weatherboard) (except for the colorbond roof and concrete piers) it still remained cold in the winter and hot in the summer. I put in air conditioning for the summer but the cost running it was not worth the trouble.
I bought the house and land for 40,000 au and added a lot of improvements over the years, so much so I reckoned I spent 150,000 au over that time. When I sold the house I made an overall loss. The only reason I made any money on the house was the three + car workshop I built at the back of it. That was the only buying point for the new owner.
You have this bug about passive cooling and "green" houses, but to be honest you can't apply Australian conditions in Thailand.
I learnt a lesson with that house and listening to all the "greenies" about what I should do, which cost me a fortune and would have been cheaper to just pull down and rebuild with Superblock (AAC). That would have solved all the issues. Two master builders I worked with at one stage told me that. Both their homes were built with Superblock and they had Colorbond roofing and their houses were cool in summer and warm in winter with minimal heating. They were also an open concept so the lounge, dining room and other rooms all gained the benefit of good planning.
Australia is in the middle of holding enquires about why so many homes have burnt to the ground because of Local Council and Government regulations on keeping things "green" and using all the things the AU site postulates. Most of the regulations and ideas that Government and Council come up with are years out of date and made by politicians.
I built my Thai house for the hot weather, Superblock and colorbond roofing with factory installation. I suggest you look along the same lines and stop following pipe dreams. I probably have one of the coolest houses in Thailand because I read other peoples builds on this forum and discarded all the "green" crap.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby arranp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:24 pm

Thanks Mr Ramjet,

I acknowledge and have accepted superblock + colorbond (kiplock) roofing for my build. Also, I'm considering replacing my patio paving with grass or provide shading of some sort.

Did you use a cavity your superblock (AAC), did you use it on internal walls also, how do you find the sound insulation ?

Regarding ventilation, as side from cross ventilation ( have windows on both sides of the room), I read that a solar chimney can help assist in re-circulating the house air when there is no wind, have you any thoughts on using this in Thailand, from what I've read its the only passive solution that may work here.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:45 pm

arranp wrote:Did you use a cavity your superblock (AAC), did you use it on internal walls also, how do you find the sound insulation ?

Regarding ventilation, as side from cross ventilation ( have windows on both sides of the room), I read that a solar chimney can help assist in re-circulating the house air when there is no wind, have you any thoughts on using this in Thailand, from what I've read its the only passive solution that may work here.


arranp,
You have spent hours and hours asking questions and chasing pipe dreams when all you had to do was look at the peoples' building stories. So far every question you've asked has already been answered somewhere else on the forum. I spent two years lurking, reading, smiling and enjoying myself before I even considered I knew the pitfalls of building here, let alone what I was going to build out of. I also changed my mind on that a few times because of where we bought land, the size of it and the shape of the land.
Yes, I used double superblock with a cavity between which I ran my electrical pipes and waste pipes in.
I made the mistake of not investing about 300,000 baht in double glazed windows, primarily because at the time the two suppliers in Bangkok were not interested in supplying them to "small fry" like me and secondly neither would guarantee they hadn't been made in China and would guarantee them for five years. It is a mistake that will be rectified when I get the time, inclination and money.
There is your first challenge, the windows. If they are not double glazed, at least 6mm thick and at least 10mm apart you will get noise and you'll get heat. Double those figures and you will have perfect silence and less heat. It's the windows, as in my Snowy Home that caused the problems of heat and cold transfer, as well as noise transfer.
It is also the reason I had to have shades put up over every window and reflective blinds installed in every room but their cost was more than worth it.
Regarding ventilation, you are again wasting time on pipe dreams. Currently we open the glass doors because its cool in the morning (we have fly screens), but when it gets warmer the house stays closed all day long. Who in their right mind would set-up a solar chimney and drag all that hot air into a 75 degree house that only goes to 86 on the hottest of days. To be honest and blunt It's a stupid idea. Passive cooling is only the same temperature as the outside air 104 some days; the same as using a fan to keep cool. That works for the human body, but houses don't sweat water to give off heat. It will not work here and you will lose what little cold air you have inside thanks to your Superblock and Colorbond roofing.
You need to stop reading all the Australian websites that are selling their product and ideas and start reading some of the building stories on this forum. The Australian ideas are the reason why their houses are now but burnt out shells. The Australian ideas are why the government has been forced into setting up a scientific review of all those "pipe dreams", Council and State laws and by-laws that got them into the mess in the first place. A house is there to withstand what nature sends at it, not give nature the upperhand.
Having been involved in most of the big bush fires, floods and even cyclone Tracy I built my house to last, not to look nice one minute and be gone the next.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby arranp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:28 pm

Thank you.

Metal white colourbond roof with PU Foam insulation, walls twin courses wall, cavity filled with fibre insulation, double glazed windows, with exterior shading from the direct sun.

Many Thanks.

Regards
Arran.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby arranp » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:30 pm

if of interest, I found these figures on the udon thani website http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/topic13091-15.html

Per sqm price for a double concrete block wall:
block @ 3.5 bt 87.5
mortar and render 46
insulation 47.9
181.4

Per sqm for a single 7.5 cm AAC block wall
AAC block @ 18 bt 145
mastic and render 55.5
200.5

R value double concrete block
block(2) 1.6
render 0.2
fiberglass 7.7
9.5

R value for AAC block
7.5 cm 3.3
render 0.2
3.5

For reference - 20 cm AAC block R value - 8.7
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby BKKBILL » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:15 pm

RR;
"I had ripped out the fibro sheeting, then used plywood sheets to cover the silver foil after I had lined the walls with insulation.
I lined the bottom of the house with insulation (pink bats) then covered them with silver foil (both sides)"

Think I see where you went wrong. Did you put the foil shiny side in or out. :mrgreen:
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:15 pm

BKKBILL wrote:Think I see where you went wrong. Did you put the foil shiny side in or out.

Now I asked the same question of the Mitre 10 expert in Australia and he said it was double sided and as it was verticle dust shouldn't be a problem. The windows were though. Sigh. I should have covered them too. I think my workshop was warmer than the house, especially after one of the suitors "supplied" a propane heater. And of course my wife had to hang my mountain jacket too close to the wood stove and burnt half a sleeve, that alone gave me "grounds". I think that jacket cost $500. The weather up there was a real bitch at times, warm in the morning, sleet at lunch time and a gail with snow in the evening.... the kids loved it they'd go skiing and I'd play with the Suzuki RM350.... until I'd hit a patch of ice and then it was crash time. I crashed a lot. :lol: :lol:
I'm not playing your game Bill. :mrgreen:
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby BKKBILL » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:24 pm

:lol: :lol: moi :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:02 pm

BKKBILL wrote: moi

Qui mon ami, vous.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby BKKBILL » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:38 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
BKKBILL wrote: moi

Qui mon ami, vous.


mais, mais. :mrgreen:
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:21 pm

BKKBILL wrote:mais, mais.

Bill,
No ifs' or buts" about it, the answer should have been mais qui.
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Re: open sub floor / insulate

Postby BKKBILL » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:26 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
BKKBILL wrote:mais, mais.

Bill,
No ifs' or buts" about it, the answer should have been mais qui.


很抱歉 :oops:
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