Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:56 pm

Mistake
Last edited by AK49 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:03 pm

Hello Jerome
Well with in floor heat, some folks get sweaty feet in the winter. I got my recliner. Feet off the floor mostly. I'll tell ya though thats the best form of heating a home I've found. No dust blowing around. No registers to block furniture. Just nice quiet unobtrusive heated environment.

OK we may have to wear slippers. Or I may have a big (If I'm lucky ands this works well) buying time ahead for throw rugs. Adjustments may have to be made. I'm also thinking about air flow and exchange. And dehumidifying. Let me mull this over as I think you have raised a valid concern. Might be walls I need to concentrate on - Hum.
Tnks
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Floor too Cold

Postby AK49 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:09 am

So floor too Cold
OK I have pondered this.
Lets start at a different area. The condition of the Air in the home. I think we can state we want it cooler and with less humidity.
Also Fresher is nice. So Air to Air Heat exchanger (I have one in my home in Alaska) I take the air out of the Kitchen and Bathroom.
This warm (And dirty) inside air goes through one side of the Heat Exchanger (You can buy better then you can build) and then is dumped out at the eaves on a less frequented side of my home. I run my home at 75 to 80F during the winter. Outside down to -40 at times but most time average -10 thats a 90o difference. The outside air is passed through the other side, it is warmed from the exhausting hot air and is distributed to the bedrooms. It runs all the time and the air in my home is fresh and great. In the summer I can set it to work in the opposite manner.

Most of you will be aware of this technology, but for the sake of discussion, how is this done?
As well as, filtering the incoming and outgoing air with reusable filters that I run through the dishwasher once a month.
The two air flows are pasted by each other on opposite sides of aluminum foil in opposite directions through a transfer block, each in its own path.
Thin sheets of aluminum separate the paths and save most of the temp of the inside air by warming the incoming outside air.
This is for Alaska, we want the opposite in Thailand
Don't know the figures but do know it works very well. the air from the bedroom vents is not noticeable what so ever unless right a the 3" vent grill and yes it is cooler air but gets disused quickly. Mine dump into the closets.
OK what dose this have to do with our situation? Well this is just good practice and the next stage fits it.
The next stage is a water to air heat exchanger. I believe I will build a set of PlateTanks to run the water through, that will take the outside air from the previous device, between these plates in a cabinet to cool it and to pressurize the home so all drafts go out.
I intend to seal and insulate the home well. The greatest percentage of leak for the sealed home should be out through the air to air heat exchanger on the outgoing channel.
By running the incoming warm exterior air (already cooled by the previous device) through these plates
(With hopefully 50 to 60F water - I wonder what time of year he took this measurement? Don't have contact with him at this time)
that will lower it's temperature further, AND it's "Dew Point"!!! and allot of the moisture should fall out of this air as water.
(i.e. dehumidifying it)
Means the cabinet should be water proof, drained and insulated.
The plates or better to call them tanks for the cooling water will have to be thicker stock. (I'm thinking 1/16" thick) I will have them welded with say, 1/2" gap and 1" to 2" fittings at katy corners so the fresh cold water will enter low on one side and exit high on the other - minimum of three plates for two air channels. In these air channels between the tanks that I would think should about 1/2" apart, I'll try to figure a way to mount Z folded aluminum foil for more surface area. OR easier would be a wire grate with the foil woven through the wires and sandwiched in-between the plates. The frame for the wires would extend beyond the plates for air passage. Flat wire would be even better giving more air passage. That would also give support to the Plate tanks sides so that they can be bigger without bending due to water pressure. (6 - 4'x8' sheets? wonder what that would cost) Hope the guys at the blacksmith shop in Det Udom know how to do good alum welding. Will need to support the outside of the outer two tanks so maybe 4 of the Grates and heavy plywood with bracing frame. If you use plate that big.

So the "Coldest" water will be warmed by the incoming air. How much ??????????? - Got to be tables to figure this stuff.

Then, after said air cooler, the water will go to the inner wall. Then to the floors.
This would make the floors the warmest of the three cooling points.
My wife's home floor is in contact with the earth and is always cooler then the outside air. maybe not much but I lay on it in the afternoon.
This floor and the walls will be isolated from the earth. They will be heat sinks that after being cooled to a point that is not uncomfortable could be switched out of the active loop by an solenoid operated valve. Both or maybe only the floor.
Good point - 3 distinct Zones with the ability to control or fully bypass each. I don't think you would ever want to stop the air cooling though.
That could be easily regulated by thermostat.
That might be as good as an AC and this is something anyone that has a well can do. Just get some insulated air ducting, Run a returnee line to below the water level in your well. (Remember the water level will go down by 2 or 3 foot when the water pump starts)
Setup a circulation pump that bypasses your pressure pump.
Connect your water supply from the circulation pump to the plate cooler with insulated pipes, and back to the dump pipe in the top of the well.
Connect this cooled air supply for your AC. I Wonder if the thing would even be needed??????? (The AC)
Someone give this a try please????? Haha
Also when the air is cooled and somewhat dehumidified the AC should be able to better handle it.
The air output from this unit could be routed to an AC unit then be distributed if need be. The water that has been used could then be run through a heat pump before returning to the well for further heat transfer also. They have really done allot with improving this tech recently but you pay for it and it requires maintenance. I'm trying to stay as simple and cheep as posable at this point. I still want to improve the conditions of the residence. Don't know if this is best or not without trying it.
I may find I'll still need the upgrades later but everything will then be in place for them.
The circulation pump will need thermostatic control and it would be nice to have variable speeds also. I'll have to get into the calculations to figure the size and speed etc.etc.
I'm planning on contacting the Company that I got my air to air Heat exchanger from and pick there brain so to speak.
I have one abandoned well on my property that I was going to do this with for the heat I could get, but put the project off and it hasn't been done yet. (WHAT 15 years have passed. Go figure) This might be the time to Ramp up for it again. Have to check my borough codes out now to see if I can still do an open loop type to an heat pump in my area. I know that I could put a coil in it and do the refrigerant thing for an closed loop type. Here I would be after the heat but the principles and figures would be the same type.
I'd have to dig up the yard to add a second pitiless adapter at about 12' deep so the water wouldn't freeze, but thats part of it here in the frozen north. haha
Well till next time.
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Re: Floor too Cold

Postby fredlk » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:58 am

AK49 wrote:I Wonder if the thing would even be needed??????? (The AC)
Someone give this a try please????? Haha

I live year round without air-conditioning. I was planning to install it but it isn't necessary with my AAC walls, cross-ventilation in all rooms and my white metal roof.
Even when there isn't a breeze it is still comfortable and the only expense is the electricity for a floor fan.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby gliffaes » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:46 pm

"comfortable" by definition is a personal thing and you cant defy the laws of physics if the air outside is 38c the air in will be at least the same with windows open.
Now if you open the windows at 6 am and let in the cold night air lets say 30c then close the windows at 7am you can trap it inside and lose little in the day if everything is air tight.
Air con also removes humidity.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:09 pm

Hi Fredlk
It's great that you can do the Thai thing. I understand that you have improved on that. The thing is I have lived most of my life as an cold climate person and when it hits 85F I am uncomfortable. :shock: I'm building new and I can't see not trying to build so I can work in the shop and house at the level I want.
I've been to Thailand off and on for 8 years and won't even consider any more summer trips. Last October visit I spent a month in front of the fan with a wet rag on my head every afternoon till the sun went down. Not fun!
I aint just bitching I'm trying to figure a way to fix it. I want to do it myself. Thats just me - so I have to figure it all out.
I also intend to do other things to improve the home already there like your talking about.
Going to stud out the roof and have a second roof put on for air flow ventilation between them, then paint the top white with that reflective paint with the ceramic spheres and aluminum chips in it. Then have the lower roof spray foamed underneath. May have them spray the ceiling of the rooms below the attic also but haven't decided yet.
Wasent able to find thermometers in thailand so brought some from Alaska. On a regular basis on the patio in the shade I would get readings of 120F. I took a couple more out there incase the mounted one was giving me erroneous readings. Nope. So even with a cross breeze that won't work for me.
Maybe your situation is different. Mine is that I'm landlocked and do not get all that much wind anyway. I'm going to replace all the louver type windows of the house with thermo double glass type that open for the night cooling and seal the house to hold out the heat in the day.
It is nice to hear someone that has the situation handled though.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:15 pm

Yah Gliffaes
You posted while I was writing. Thats the way I was thinking. Make the house a balloon and then insulate it. You can then control the temp inside it.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:16 pm

This is a brief post I submitted some time back re inside / outside temp.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3597

there is also a lot of info scattered thru-out the various forums re house cooling.

But it comes down to basic physics, without mechanical cooling (ie, a/con, or utilising ground water, lower soil temp via air tubes etc) the internal temp can never be less than the minimum daily or o/night temp. The aim should be to get the house as cool as you can overnight and close it up during the day - this is provided you have built to exclude the high external daily temp.
Of course we all don't live by the sea like some lucky people who have the benefit of cooler sea breezes lazily wafting through the house most of the year :D
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:28 pm

Just right Ians
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby fredlk » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:11 pm

AK49 wrote:The thing is I have lived most of my life as an cold climate person

Okay so there's the first difference. I was born and grew up in a hot climate country and so I don't function below 24 degrees.
AK49 wrote:Maybe your situation is different. Mine is that I'm landlocked

I am fortunate in that I am 4 kilometres from the sea and because of that body of water I have never seen the temperature here go higher than 34 degrees.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:20 pm

I haven't run the calcs on cooling by heat transfer, nor do I intend to, but I would suspect that heat transfer thru concrete via water is going to give an extremely poor result and the energy required to run pumps and maintain a functioning well system will far outweigh the cost of efficient air-conditioning. My 2 cents worth at this stage but would certainly be interested in seeing a full report on an investigation of this magnitude.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Ians » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:33 pm

fredlk wrote:
AK49 wrote:The thing is I have lived most of my life as an cold climate person

Okay so there's the first difference. I was born and grew up in a hot climate country and so I don't function below 24 degrees.
AK49 wrote:Maybe your situation is different. Mine is that I'm landlocked

I am fortunate in that I am 4 kilometres from the sea and because of that body of water I have never seen the temperature here go higher than 34 degrees.



Fred.
Do you have to rub it in about being so close to the sea, especially in my case as I lived the vast majority of my life virtually on or in the sea - and boy do I miss it.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby fredlk » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:17 pm

Ians wrote:Do you have to rub it in about being so close to the sea

Sorry. :(
Ians wrote: I lived the vast majority of my life virtually on or in the sea

Your photo looks decidedly Mediterranean. Could be Torquay. :D But with all the warning signs is most likely Australia.
Ians wrote: boy do I miss it.

My first couple of decades were spent looking at the sea daily or in it and while living in Bangkok I realised that I was becoming homesick for it so looked for seaside property. Now that I live here and can see the sea, I don't go to the beach often but I like knowing it's there. My dogs love swimming in the waves but handling 2 Jack Russells running free on a beach on my own is impossible.

Back to cooling ideas. When I was researching building while living in Bangkok, the only things I came up were based on perceived levels of comfort rather than lowering of temperature. I do hope that when my pool and ponds are built and with them being in the shade at all times, I might be lucky enough to get the nighttime temperature down another couple of degrees.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's - Most recent thoughts

Postby AK49 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:33 am

My Most recent thoughts;

The water to air cooling tanks could be separated with 1/2" aluminum conduit pipes. Stacked would give support and more surface area for temp transference. Device would need to be tipped for condensate drainage.

I have been thinking about incoming air. If before building I had an 1 meter culvert buried under the house cati-courner, with 90o bends to the surface at both ends, it could cool the air to almost ground temp. In my case it could be about 16 meters long. I could have it start on one corner of the patio. Have it filtered - taking in shaded air. It would come out in the back corner of my shop to be connected to the water to air cooler inlet. The ground temp under the insulation board of the slab should be about the temp of the earth 3 or 4 foot down. I could also fill this with 8" vent pipe for temp transfer baffling. If mold or mildew problem should show, I would be able to access this (Crawl in it) for possible clean out or retrofit. I figure 22 - 8" pipe would fit with 5' lengths to fit the bend at both ends for installation or removal. Might only want air moving in the vent tubes that would be sealed if unwanted growth problems prevail. Also water could be misted onto the outside of these tubes for first stage cooling -????? I don't know if this would be efficient use of cool water from the pump. I know that at certain times of the year this would be flooded to some extant. I believe during the hottest time of the year by the way.
If the tubes were truly water proof that might be the best. Silicone sealant and duck tape come to mind. If the incoming air were filtered well that might be best way of limiting unwanted growth. The full 22 pipe that would fit might not be needed either. But the more used the slower the air would move in each. This grouping of pipe might need to move up and down for the flooding period in my case, and would need to be secured together into a bundle.
Thinking of the engineering and logistics of this I'm thinking it might be better to have one end emerge from the ground at an angle for access. This end could be buried until needed. so a ninety at one end and an "t" at the inlet with a capped end to be buried. That would make it way easier to load long waterproof (Soldered ?) sections of pipe with up sweep sections almost a meter long on them. Think I would then mount them into the full float position so their would be no movement and the in shop end could be securlly sealed from vermin.
Question;
Dose anyone know, how dose silicon sealant fair in Thailand? Are their any critters or plants that like the stuff? If so is their anything that can be done about it?
Sorry for thinking and modifying as I'm writing.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:52 am

Ians wrote:I haven't run the calcs on cooling by heat transfer, nor do I intend to, but I would suspect that heat transfer thru concrete via water is going to give an extremely poor result and the energy required to run pumps and maintain a functioning well system will far outweigh the cost of efficient air-conditioning. My 2 cents worth at this stage but would certainly be interested in seeing a full report on an investigation of this magnitude.

-
-
The water to concrete temp transference is already proven with the use of PEX type tubing. My basement slab and shop slab are heated this way.
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