Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

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Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:15 am

I'm new to the forum. Hope I'm in the right place.
I was raised in Alaska and I've built a couple of my own homes here. The Idea being to retain the heat, 5* balloon and all that.
I would think keeping the heat OUT would be on the same line ???????
But, where should the vapor barrier be?
I bought the house next door to my wife's home.
Had it taken down and rebuilt the compound walls. Boy was it an effort to get the walls done the way I wanted.
2 & 1/2 inch briks are all I could find so I had my builder use two bricks about 4" apart and filled in-inbetween them with concrete and lots of iron. 3 meters high out of the ground and 1 meter down with pull backs because I wanted to raise the lot level. Figure they will stand 20 - 30 years.
Back filled about 1&1/2 meter of dirt to bring the lot above the annual flood line.
So there it sits and I'm thinking about what to do now.
Flash in the pan = Monolithic footer and slab with 2" high density foam form. I figure a 18" x 18" footer and an 3" floor (Lots of wire in the thing).
I also want to install PEX tubing in the slab for in floor cooling. I figure to have a well or two sunk in the back corners of the lot so I can do a standing open loop from each. The water 50' down was measured by a friend of mine in his well, it was 50oF. I believe "that" in itself would go along way to cool a home.

As I understand it (Ohy) One drills a deep well (Say 100' or 30Meter) and run the suction pipe to the bottom (or almost) and a return line to just below the standing water level with the pump running. The warmer return water is then cooled on its way back to the bottom to be pumped again.
I would think that after initial charging a circulation pump would be all thats needed??????? (Just got to keep that syphon)
I figure that lightweight white brick for the walls with the sheetrock that has a foam backing for the interior walls and ceiling.
Roof with double wall, vented between.
80oF would be fine. It's the 120oF days I can't take and when I've been there (other then Nov Dec Jan and Feb) thats what it was most days. Almost always at 100.
After noon about all I can do is sit in front or the fan till the sun goes down. Tnks for cold beer. I'm taking a mister system for my wife's patio with me this next time. My wife and daughter and her friend have had Air installed for half the living room. Now thats sweet aint it?
I digress!
****If it turns out to be not enough, the setup would be there to add a Heet-pump and maybe a dehumidifier into the system.
What do you all think?????
Questions;
1 Can I access high density foam boards (for under the concrete) around UBON and what do you think a 4'x8'x2" sheet (or their a bouts) would cost?
----Is it worth breaking ground contact or would I be loosing in this respect?
2 How about availability of PEX Supplies?
3 How about that fancy brick? And that brings to mind a double wall concept, insul brick on the outside and regular on the in side?
----With or without an air gap? Air? or would it be better to have that gap filled with foam?
----That would add allot to the cost - would it be worth it?
Any help the Group can give me would be greatly appreciated - Ill share what I do.
Hoping I have to wear slippers.
Alaska Skip :)
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:36 pm

AK49,
You will need an area in excess of 5 acres to bury your piping in, if you can afford that much piping. You will need to find a source of high density foam other than what is available locally - closed cell and open cell polyurathane sprayed on. You would need at least styrofoam blocks that nobody has seen, let alone heard of here..... and then a builder who knows how to lay them.
The alternative is superblock. The double alternative is superblock with vapour barrier between, Colorbond roof with PE or PU foam under it, windows shaded and glass doors protected from sunlight.
If you read a few builds many people have gone this way.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Makmak456 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:42 pm

Plus 1 to RR,s comment !
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby schuimpge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:11 am

Guys, AK47 does not want a large field of pipes. He wants a single or double deep bore hole where it would cool a 'closed' circulation floor cooling system.
Interesting thought, but wondering if the pump would not be very high on cost. If closed, pressure downwards might mostly nullify the pumping force necessary for the upwards part, but that's only for a 100% closed system I think, unless suction on the downwards/return section keeps a vacuum until the bottom of the well, which then helps the circulation pump a bit.

Or solar pump that runs only daytime..as night time should be cool enough.

Cheers,
Luc
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:27 am

schuimpge wrote:He wants a single or double deep bore hole where it would cool a 'closed' circulation floor cooling system.

The area to cool under the floor requires massive use of piping. Where are you going to get the (I think it's 5 to 1) 5 area in one bore hole? That's 5 times the length of piping for passive cooling than is used in the floor. And then there's who will drill it, who will install it, where are you going to get the pipe and another 101 questions. I'm trying to be pragmatic.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby gliffaes » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:19 am

Id be more worried about leaks knowing the Thais plumbing capabilities, and even if done ok then id be worried about others drilling trhu it when building the rest of the house, but on saying that the water out of my borehole is lovely and cool and clean.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:14 pm

Man O Man
Spent 3-4 hours wrighting with descriptions and links and such.
So Tried to preview and got the login page! Lost it all, have tried everything I know to get it back. NADA
Tiered now will try again tomorrow
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:56 pm

Can't sleep so here's a short
More and the links later
The Idea is to run tubing in the concrete slab on a manifold that would be supplied from a well Deep into rock _ It would be whats called an open loop system. The uptake pipe is at the bottom of the bore hole and goes to the pump (What ever type you want) this pump is used to start the system.
The water would then go to a Manifold pipe that will split the flow into several sections of pipe loops (one big loop would leave the side of the structure on the end of the loop too warm because the water would have warmed up too much) then the collection manifold takes the water back to the well ware the pipe goes back to below the standing water level when the pump is running. This is so the pipe never can loose suction by being exposed to air.
Now the slightly warmer water travels down the well water column as its circulated (After initial charging) by a smaller circulation pump ( Yes this could be run by a solar panel) Good thinking Luc and yah thats the kinda help I'm talking about. only need it during the day right. Well really I've experienced some Hot evenings in Bangkok, let me say. Wife and I couldn't wait to get back to the hotel room with air.
I digress again
So this water will give up its heat to the surrounding rock in its travel back down to the uptake pipe.
I got no figures yet but rule o thumb and best guess etc. 50oF (10C) in an isolated slab should render that slab about 70oF (22C). Cource how long to reach that from what starting temp. How much flow is needed ETC.ETC. I aint got the figures yet. Need to do a powerful amount of study and then tackle those AC calculations. Might want an large heat exchanger to a refrigerant and heat pump ???? don't know yet BUT I figure it would be better then nothing like my wife's home now. (She has installed that Air con for me though. How sweet she is!!!)
I aint working tomorrow so I'll up and rodo that previous post. I been thinking hard bout this sense last febuary. I do not want the tipical Thai home!!!!!
I aint rich so I got to do this the smart way going back to some of the ways it's been done before we got this new expensive teck. Yah it works great I agree
but retired means I still got a long way to go but not quite as fast haha

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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:33 pm

Hay RR
Tnks for the comments and questions and I'll address most tomorrow.
For now as to who and how. The short - Me and the guy that built my walls. He wants to learn the sahalot way and after much back and forth with my translator and pictures drawn on the wall and one sided arguments and a great deal of frustration. He did a wonderful job haha
I was an electronics guy in the Navy and have been into most everything during my life. I consider myself a Joat. I've done almost everything for myself.
Did call the furnace guys few years back though haha. I hire crews when I need help. Teach em if I have to. I'm watching all the time to learn to do things.
I plum and wire. My hobbie is studying Alternative Energy Sources.
Someone mentioned nailing into the floor pipes. One important part about putting loops into the floor is knowing where they are when your done so that dose not happen. In case it dose I keep a couple expensive brass compression couplings in the tool box and its chip out - repair - patch time. No I'm not going to go off when a crew is working. Yes I watch whats being done. Thats probably why they want more per day to work for foreigners. We want it done right and no you are not to use that last few other color tile (they have from another job) because you ran out of the right ones haha
I've done in floor heating back before anyone knew what they were. Had a company patent my system once, bout 25 years ago. I think I was the first to use concrete shower backer board on top of tubing with plywood spacers between instead of poring 3-4" of Lightcrete for retrofitting older homes to in floor heat.
Sheatrocked and Taped the bathrooms -off the gym for my church. 4 stalls and two showers each, had complaints from the guys hanging the false ceiling because they could not find the wall studs by the Screw Holes. They had to go buy a stud finder HaHa
Well I'm get ing goofy tiered now - Night
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby fredlk » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:56 pm

AK49 wrote:give up its heat to the surrounding rock

Most of Thailand is swamp. The nearest rock I found on the hill on which I built was 49 metres down.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby schuimpge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:21 pm

I can imagine this to work.
As for night time cooling, your slab will retain quite some cooling during the night.
But a simple car battery could extend that for a few hours to bridge that last little bit.

There's a couple of things that are risky.
One is, you need to make sure the well doesn't run below the outlet of the return pipe.
But given dept of the hole and how cool it is down there, you'd be able to bring your water to comfortable low temperature very fast.
Second... You'll need to isolate the slab from the outside walls as they will sure reduce or almost nullify any of your cooling.
That's quite easy with double walls and the before mentioned q-con or other isolating blocks.
Still a risky undertaking, but interesting to work out. A 5x6 meter old style Thai build house cost you (hot months, say 7 out of 12), about 50 Baht per night on the compressor/aircon. Isolated 'Farang' built house might bring that to 25-35 Baht.
Cold months would cost zip in the Farangs house while my old style Thai house gets me 25 Baht per night.
So you could have a look at ROI with those figures to see if it's worth it.

Will follow this with interest
Cheers,
Luc
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:20 am

Lo again
So after loosing that post last night I looked and do have the links in history. Make it a little easier.

About Open loop
http://www.geojerry.com/aboutopenloop.html

http://wellowner.org/geothermal-heat-pu ... m-require/

http://energyblog.nationalgeographic.co ... d-cooling/

Images
https://www.google.com/search?q=Open+Lo ... 56&bih=694

3ton requirement needs 5 gallons minute if using a heat pump.
For cooling my floor & Walls whatever I get will be what I get. I'm not concerned about ROI really, its got to be a cheeper way but I'll try in the future to nail down the facts.
I will try small pipe loops down the inner brick holes. This will mean a bend at the bottom that will have to be reinforced. Also a footer for the inner wall will need its own footer inside the styrofoam form. I may leave the Q-Con block on a footer not isolated from the ground w/ foam between the 2 walls (There goes the wire-ring chase).
I wonder if the holes shouldn't be filled with creat after the tubing is inserted??
Be better temp transference.

The Aussie way of roof venting
http://www.aussieroofing.com/ventilation.htm
Other categories on left have other interesting stuff. Don't know Thai availability But show a picture and see what they have.

Drywall with foam bed attached
http://www.buildingmaterials.co.uk/plas ... 1200-22mm/

Celling tile w/foam Thailand
http://www.pantipmarket.com/items/11261779

Got stuff happening so will post this
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:22 pm

Have you thought that while under floor is good for heating it probably isn't such a good idea for cooling.

The majority of people don't wear shoes in the house and a cold floor isn't comfortable to walk on or sit on. I found that this cold season the floors were cold enough that SWMBO and I needed to use our flight slippers until mid Feburary.
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Re: Det Udom Cooler Home idea's

Postby AK49 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:12 pm

Hay Ed
Tnks for the PDF's
The first was 1.5 Mb and the second 3.5 Mb (Or thereabouts)
I have a 9.8 Mb per minute download rate .038 sec ping. It took 4min for first and 5-6min for second, so it's probably the server they came from upload rate.
Good info - make's me wonder about my friends 50F clams. (My shower gets the cold though (I think). Anyway I'm taking a hand held thermal gun with me this coming trip to do my own testing along with a bobber and weight on some fishing line to get the water level in my well as well as depth
I'm about two blocks from the river and my wife's neighborhood gets flooded annually.

Those studies were done with a closed loop system and only about 1/2" pipe (2 cm). In an unencumbered hole I was thinking 2x 1 1/2" or 2" pipes
so from the short returne pipe at about 30' down, to the uptake at the bottom, thats 65' to 70' for the water to flow against the walls to re-cool.
I'll print them so I can study more.

If using 5 gal a minute. That should be 4 to 5 minutes before re-uptake. Rough guess! Incase thats not enough time I intend to do two or if posable three wells. Cheeper in quantity right????? So then I can rather use both and slow the flow to half giving twice the time between uptake or pump from one and inject to the other and give actual flow through the rock time. I just love this kinda plotting and experimenting.

Had a well (I think they call it a borehole because the driller didn't use casing. just bored a hole into the ground When done he pounded a plastic pipe almost 30' into the ground till it stopped moving). I watched him drill all day till it got dark and he was working by lights. The first 25' looked like clay filled dirt and I was telling myself shucks this aint good that hole is gona collapse on them. then shale chips started coming out. It was like that to the time he stopped. He drilled a 30 Meter hole for me so theirs 75' of rock. The last 10' was with this small guy literally standing on a bar wedged into the feed wheel.
Don't think they could have gone much further.
I think I might want to find a bigger drill rig to go deeper and larger if I can. (Just more bucks right) I'm going to have to pay to cool my house eather now or in the future. one way or the other.
The plastic pipe he cased the clay with was 4" or 5" stuff (I'll measure when I get there) I think a 6" minimum or 8" better. at lunch today I plotted my wifes home and the one I want to build next to it. Came out 3300 Cubic Meters enclosed.
Stopped at home depot on the way home and got a price of $129 for 500' of white PEX 1/2" tubing, weight 28lbs. So I can bring 2 of those per trip for $100 extra baggage.
I also bought a 6' piece of 1/4" PEX and can make a 3" bend without it kinking. Should be no problem stuffing a loop down a brick hole. The holes on my brick here are 6" long so next I'm going to get a length of 1/2" PEX and see if it can go through that without a kink. IF anyone has one of those approximately i think 2 1/2" x 7" x 16" blocks, could you measure the holes for me???
My plan is a double wall, outer - Q-Con type for the insulating quality, Inner - regular brick for the mass storage with spray foam between them.
Was thinking today, (Relax now) If we do the inner wall and have it sprayed then do the outer one that might be easiest right? Anybody see any problem with that?
Well church tomorrow and I'm beat
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