Heat gain / control question

Air conditioning, fans, and anything related to keeping it cool, such as insulation. This would include any posts generally discussing how to keep it cool, such as which types of blocks are better insulators.... ideal wall thickness for keeping an A/C house cool, etc.

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Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:01 am

Scenario:

The front of my home will face due east and will be quite tall (steep pitched roof) for a single story house and will incorporate a lot of glass windows and doors.

I was thinking about using the Q-Con or similar block (in conjuction with the orange block) in those walls creating an air space, but my guess is that using a lot of windows
will negate the benifit of the double wall.

I haven' t found any quality double glazed windows here that incorporate a thermal break, so will opt to do without, using only tinted glass.

Besides the obvious "plant a tree" option can you share your opinion or thoughts about this ??

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby thailazer » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:13 pm

Have you considered awnings or over-hangs in your design to keep the sun off the living quarters? Things surely do bake well if in the sun.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:12 pm

Thanks for the input.

There will be a 1 m overhang but quite high up.
Morning sun only till about 11 ish and there's alwys a breeze (albeit hotter in the summer).
Not an issue now as the sun is lower in the winter.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby thailazer » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:00 pm

We tried to put bathrooms, walk in closets, and utility rooms on the sunny side of the house to form a bit more buffer from the heat. One thing we are glad we did was put a bathroom on a hot corner of the house with windows on each wall. That bathroom always has a breeze through it to help it dry out and keep it cool.

You mentioned a tree which works but there are also nice plants which have large leave similar to banana trees but more ornamental. Have seen those planted right up against walls and I am sure they help a lot.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Mike Judd » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:16 pm

It all depends whether you are having Air-Con or not to keep cool. If not it's all about Air flow, a good insulated roof with provision for the build up of hot air throughout the day to escape. Wide eaves to keep most of the hot sun off of the walls, then plenty of windows or sliding doors on both sides of your rooms to allow a flow of what ever breeze is available. If hot air can rise and get out , cooler air must come in to replace it when the sun has gone down. Fans will help the process along. Sometimes because of the design where you end up with what I call "Dead End rooms" off of corridors with windows on one side only, Air -con is the only solution as you are not going to get much natural air flow. With Air-con how you design and build your house is going to affect the cost of running it to keep the temperature you are happy with. That's where double glazing and lots of insulation come into play to keep those different temperatures apart.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:13 pm

I guess I should have has asked...more specifically, will the wall that will have at least 50% windows and doors, benifit by using an insulated block on the exterior, or with all the glass, would the money be better spent on trees, shrubs and the like.

Awnings and exterior shades are not feasable in the design

The vaulted ceiling will finish out at about 4.5 meters and the roofing will be insulated at the trusses.

The south side is the car park and western exposure will be the outdoor kitchen and bathrooms.
An existing structure and trees will provide enough shading theer also

Air con, probably yes althought the open area is 7m wide by about 15m long.
It's in the center of the house with 2 br. and carpark to the south and master br on the north.

I will provide a "hot air exit" above hoping to draw in the cooler air from almost floor levelwindows .

I was planning on powder coated alum. frames, but as mentioned, have not come across double glazed (with the needed thermal break) here in Udon.

Thanks to all for the input and thoughts.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:00 pm

Baht Man wrote:Scenario:

I haven' t found any quality double glazed windows here that incorporate a thermal break, so will opt to do without, using only tinted glass.

Besides the obvious "plant a tree" option can you share your opinion or thoughts about this ??

Thanks in advance.

The importance of a thermal break is when you have the reverse problem we have here. It is to prevent the frame getting very cold, typically low single diggit degrees C, then having condensation problems in thr room. It has little to do with significant heat transfer. Thus there is little need for it here. IR cut is important and most of the tinted glass here doesn't do a good job with that.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:57 am

Thanks, but in using alum. framed windows how much better is a double glaed vs single?
Yea, I know double as it's two pieces, but as in a wall insulation value of say R-2 is not much better than an R-1.
Maybe I'm missing something here?

And again, would using a insulating Q-con type block on the exterior wall be of any real value if the wall was more glass than block?
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby geordie » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:57 am

the daytime benefits of the thermal blocks will be minimal during the day they will stop some radiated heat but the windows will negate the benefit when you will notice is when you turn on the aircon
Before you get the full benefit of aircon its the same as heating (in reverse) you are actually trying to cool the air but if you have a large concrete storage unit = wall it will take a lot longer to cool down
The French use wooden shutters on the outside with louvers the Spanish use roller shutters with perforations (slots ) for allowing air movement
Not sure if they are available here but in uk I used to have the bedroom I used fitted with blackout blinds very efficient and a requirement for sleeping (I worked nights) I actually fitted them on the kitchen / diner and got a substantial drop in temperature basically its a roller blind with a foil glued to it so not hard to mimic
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:14 pm

Thanks again for all the input.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:27 pm

Baht Man wrote:Thanks, but in using alum. framed windows how much better is a double glaed vs single?
Yea, I know double as it's two pieces, but as in a wall insulation value of say R-2 is not much better than an R-1.
Maybe I'm missing something here?

And again, would using a insulating Q-con type block on the exterior wall be of any real value if the wall was more glass than block?

In the reverse order

Yes Q-con type blocks are better, as Geordie mentioned, thermal mass is what you want to avoid and the Q-con type blocks have less thermal mass. So good at night. They also have insulation properties so good in the day.

With the glass it's a more complex answer. Double glazing in the UK is mainly used to reduce drafts caused by cooled air movement, to speed up heating and to provide a more even room temperature. All of the factors reduce energy consumption. This means that treated glass isn't usually very important.

However technology has moved on and there are treatment films that reduce IR heat transmission significantly without a strong colour. You also have the traditional tinted windows that have much less reduction in IR heat transmission. The IR cut film is not cheap.

Thus a cheep double glazed unit may be out performed by a single glazed unit with a good film treatment, however double glazed units with the same treatment will be very much better then the single pane.

Having said all that the best solution, again as Gordie has said, is to prevent the sun hitting the glass
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby geordie » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:37 pm

I wish it was possible to get the Spanish style roller shutters the box they rolled into was integral with the wall so above the window and hanging into the house slightly which meant if you went for the manually operated you wound them down from inside the house so not only did they give good protection from the sun they also doubled as security shutters the electrically operated ones could be set to close or open on a time clock or simply hit the master control button and the house was instantly secured it should be possible here to get them but costs might make them prohibitive
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:49 pm

Well.thanks again for all the input and thoughts.
I'll do some costing out on dbl. glazed and cut film, but what's the real life expendancy of a cut film applied over glass
and is it installed buy the same places that do cars?
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:49 pm

Baht Man,
Baht Man wrote: is it installed buy the same places that do cars?

It is normally done at the window shop because of the colour you wish to have it tinted to. Mine were all blue tint which is slightly more expensive than green.
My whole house is superblock with small profile windows, even then the heat radiating through the windows and doors was raising the temperature by at least 5 degrees so I had shades installed over every window, both inside and outside, the drop in temperature was about 7 degrees and will come down further when the front doors are also protected from the sun. Reflective blinds also help, and curtains will help even more. Currently my house is just 80 degrees upstairs and downstairs 78.
Good luck trying to get double glazed windows with a vacuum seal between them, let alone gas filled ones.
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Re: Heat gain / control question

Postby Baht Man » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:09 pm

I don't think I'd buy gas filled windows here if I could find them.
A seal failure would render them usless and the build up of water/chem. deposits inside is not something I want to deal with.
Tinting seems the way to go.

Thanks
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