petrol in Thailand

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petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:34 pm

Can someone please explain the technicalities of Thai fuel. The lady at Suzuki said put in either 95 Gasohol or E20 but not 91 Gasohol which is bull as far as I know.
What's the difference if any between E20 (20% biofuel) and 91 or 95 Octane Gasohol? I know there might be E10 as well and a long time ago they were dreaming of E85.
Can somebody take me through the unleaded fuels - not "benzeen" as they call leaded here - so that I might learn the specifics once and for all. I know the difference between 91 and 95 octane.
Thanks.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby MGV12 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:17 pm

fredlk wrote:Can someone please explain the technicalities of Thai fuel. The lady at Suzuki said put in either 95 Gasohol or E20 but not 91 Gasohol which is bull as far as I know.
What's the difference if any between E20 (20% biofuel) and 91 or 95 Octane Gasohol? I know there might be E10 as well and a long time ago they were dreaming of E85.
Can somebody take me through the unleaded fuels - not "benzeen" as they call leaded here - so that I might learn the specifics once and for all. I know the difference between 91 and 95 octane.
Thanks.


Good luck with that one ... perhaps you should have brought a diesel; as there are no 'E' versions currently available; at least not in CM.

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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:21 pm

MGV12 wrote:perhaps you should have brought a diesel

My next car will be hydrogen-powered. :D .... or possibly solar if the price comes down enough. :lol:
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:28 pm

fredlk,
The difference between benzine and gasohol is the top end lubrication. Benzine has greater top end lubrication and the greater the number the greater the lubrication. Gasohol comes in 10, 20 and 85 in some countries and covers the ethanol content. The Suzuki will run fine on either 91 benzine or 91 gasohol but you'll get better mileage out of 91 benzine and have better power. I only used gasohol 91 if I can't get benzine 91, but that's a personal choice.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby sirineou » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:49 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:fredlk,
The difference between benzine and gasohol is the top end lubrication. Benzine has greater top end lubrication and the greater the number the greater the lubrication. Gasohol comes in 10, 20 and 85 in some countries and covers the ethanol content. The Suzuki will run fine on either 91 benzine or 91 gasohol but you'll get better mileage out of 91 benzine and have better power. I only used gasohol 91 if I can't get benzine 91, but that's a personal choice.

I am not familiar with the "top end lubrication" of benzine as apposed to gasohol. are you referring to the octane or is there some other property or additive?
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:43 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:The difference between benzine and gasohol is the top end lubrication.

Benzine in Thailand is leaded fuel. I used to ask for either benzine 91 or benzine 95 for the Audi because it didn't run well on Gasohol / biofuel / E10 / E20 ....
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:16 am

fredlk wrote:Benzine in Thailand is leaded fuel.

Oops :oops: I went back too far in time there, I meant UNleaded, pure petrol no added Ethanol / biofuel / gasohol.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:14 am

sirineou,
sirineou wrote: am not familiar with the "top end lubrication" of benzine as apposed to gasohol.

During the old days petrol contained lead for lubrication. Motors didn't run as hot as they do nowadays because manufacturers now toughen all their steel to withstand the extra friction caused by the lack of lead in the fuel. If a car manufacturer (not dealer) says their motor will run on E10, E20 or E whatever, then that's what they have tested the car's motor on without deteriorating the top end, pistons, rods etc (anything involved in the combustion of fuel). Be warned however, they also state that a car must be serviced (oil changed etc) every 5,000 or 10,000, 3 months, 6 months and they mean it. If you would care to scan the papers for secondhand cars, you'll find in most cases involving good cars, they will have a sentence attached saying "no deferred service" (BMW and Benz in particular) because synthetic oils break down over time and it's not either or with the services it's the lowest number, 3 months or 5,000 kilometres. So if your car has only done 1,000 kilometres in 3 months, it still needs an oil change. Most Thais have a bad habit of ignoring this which is why the dealers write to them the whole time.
I'm sure someone else like MGV12 could describe it better than I.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby sirineou » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:19 am

I understand the E- rating of gasoline as it pertains to the percentage of ethanol added to gasoline.
The higher the E (ethanol) rating the more ethanol it contains and since ethanol is less expensive the lower the cost
But Ethanol produces less power than Gasoline so the higher the ethanol percentage the lower the performance.
This is from a test on Ethanol blends:
The three vehicles averaged 1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower mileage with E20, 5.1%
lower mileage with E30, and miles per gallon actually increased by an average of 1.7% when using
E10AK made with the specially denatured ethanol. E10AK was the highest mileage fuel in two

Complete report herehttp://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf
The octane rating pertains to the anti-knocking properties of the fuel.
The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating.
Some of the new high performance engines that have high compression ratios,require a high octane fuel to prevent the fuel from detonating during the compression cycle which is what is called as pre-ignition, knocking or pining, and leads in loss of power and can damage the cylinder heads and valves.
It is a common misconception that a high octane fuel will make your engine run better or produce better performance. It will not
If your engine runs with out knocking on 87 octane fuel, putting a higher octane fuel will do nothing other than cost you more,
The lowest octane fuel that your engine will run on with with out knocking is the best for your engine and your wallet.
What I don't understand is the "top end lubrication" statement.I know that leaded gasoline provided lubrication to the heads, but I don't think there is leaded gasoline in Thailand anymore.Are there some fuels that have lubricating additives added to them that are sold in Thailand?
PS: having said all that I should also say that I have limited experience with fuel in Thailand, my pickup truck is diesel and never had to purchase anything other than that.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:58 am

sirineou,
Friction causes heat. Ethanol is not a good lubricant for the pistons, intake, outlet exhaust etc as it is a "dry" fuel with little lubricant properties.
If you want the technical data try here: http://web.mit.edu/rktakata/www/thesis_final.pdf
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby sirineou » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:18 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:sirineou,
Friction causes heat. Ethanol is not a good lubricant for the pistons, intake, outlet exhaust etc as it is a "dry" fuel with little lubricant properties.
If you want the technical data try here: http://web.mit.edu/rktakata/www/thesis_final.pdf

That makes good sense, Ethanol is basically alcohol , like you said a substance with very low lubricating properties.
where unleaded fuel , though less lubricating than leaded fuel is still a petroleum based substance as is motor oil.
since the motorbike might not have the best quality metal heads, it might be better to not use the blended fuels that might have a lower lubricating quality.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby MGV12 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:24 am

The question has mostly been addressed but here's my tuppeneth anyway:

sirineou wrote:What I don't understand is the "top end lubrication" statement.I know that leaded gasoline provided lubrication to the heads, but I don't think there is leaded gasoline in Thailand anymore.


'Leaded' gas/petrol has been phased out in almost every country in the world. This at the time caused significant problems for vehicles that were designed to run on this fuel as the lead acted as a lubricant for the 'top end' of the engine ... that is predominantly the valve stems and the valve seats. Valves not only go up and down during the engine cycle but the 'rockers' or 'cam followers' that open and close the valve are designed with an offset so that they also rotate slowly; this helps to prevent a build up of combustion products contaminating the seats and thus affect their ability to seal properly and generate maximum power from the combustion cycle; it also evens out wear that does occur. If you ran an engine designed for leaded fuel on unleaded fuel the lack of lubricant and consequential wear would cause a deterioration in the chamber sealing and therefore loss of power ... in time leading to a major loss of power and 'clatter' from the top end as the valve guides/valves wore. Cars designed to run on unleaded fuels had valve seat inserts/valves/valve guides made from a harder material. You could buy an 'unleaded conversion' for your older car which had the same modifications and allowed you to use unleaded fuel.

Fuels containing Ethanol have a similar effect as the Ethanol is a solvent and removes even the natural lubrication features of petrol that were left after the lead was removed. If you car/truck/boat/lawnmower/brush cutter etc etc is not designed to run on fuel containing ethanol do not use it. Most modern cars are designed to run on fuels containing Ethanol, some up to E85 level [that's 85% Ethanol] and most have their ECU set up to compensate for the reduced power that results, but litre for litre they will get a 25-30% reduction in mileage [that's E85 ... the reduction lessens with E20/E10]. Normally these vehicles have an FFV tag somewhere or an E85 sticker by the fuel filler saying it's safe to use this fuel. Like with using unleaded fuel in a leaded engine, you will risk increased wear and tear but also reduced power and increased fuel consumption as the ECU [if it has one] is not calibrated for the fuel.

As you say ... octane ratings have a significant effect on vehicle performance and you should use at minimum whatever the manufacturers blurb says you should use. Unless you suspect that a certain brand/forecourt is being optimistic on their posted octane rating there is no benefit to be gained from paying for a higher rated fuel ... unless your engine system has been modified to extract the benefits. Too low an octane rating will result in pre-ignition [knocking] which in due course will damage the engine; retarding the ignition timing can compensate for this but with a consequential loss in power ... so you would only do it really if you were in a location where a lower rated fuel was all that was available. Usual pump octane ratings here are 91 or 95 ... in the UK you can get 98 and F1 cars run on anything up to 102; however theirs is a very different blend and they do not optimise power from the octane rating alone.

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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:25 pm

Thanks everyone ... I think.
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby fredlk » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Recap what I have learnt (here and) elsewhere:

Gasohol in Thailand is generally E10 - 10 percent biofuel - Esso, Shell, Caltex, ... ;
Gasohol at PTT and Bangchak is E20 - 20 percent biofuel;
E30 is not available in Thailand;
the Suzuki Swift can use Benzine, E10 or E20, but not E30. It can use either 91 or 95 octane.

Conclusion:
I will get fuel anywhere I am when I need it and ask for "91 Gasohol demtang" (full).
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Re: petrol in Thailand

Postby MGV12 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:45 pm

fredlk wrote:Recap what I have learnt (here and) elsewhere:

Gasohol in Thailand is generally E10 - 10 percent biofuel - Esso, Shell, Caltex, ... ;
Gasohol at PTT and Bangchak is E20 - 20 percent biofuel;
E30 is not available in Thailand;
the Suzuki Swift can use Benzine, E10 or E20, but not E30. It can use either 91 or 95 octane.

Conclusion:
I will get fuel anywhere I am when I need it and ask for "91 Gasohol demtang" (full).


If you have the mind ... it could be worth waiting until the low fuel light comes on then fill up with whichever ... set the trip.

When the low fuel light comes on again check the mileage then re-set the trip and fill up with the other.

The theory says you will lose mileage on Gasohol that is in excess of the saving at the pump ... be interesting to know what the practise is ... also whether you do actually notice any difference in performance.

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