Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Legal issues related to buying land, houses, condos in the LOS. Anything about contracts. Finance related, such as getting a mortgage, buying property from the bank, etc.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby Attila » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:34 am

If there are situations in which a usufruct could get canceled, why wouldn't the same apply to a superficies?
Attila
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby jazzman » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:52 am

Why bother getting officially married when a Buddhist ceremony is all that is required to comply with local mores?
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby Smithson » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:28 am

jazzman wrote:Why bother getting officially married when a Buddhist ceremony is all that is required to comply with local mores?


If a married couple has a combined income of B40,000 per month they can apply for a one year visa. We have a business together and to obtaining the WP is easy but for the one year business visa there are all sorts of hurdles that we were struggling to overcome. I must also draw a salary of 65K, which means a higher tax bracket.

At the time we weren't thinking about buying land and I didn't realize the implications, however in hindsight I think I still would have proceeded with the registration. BTW, my wife doesn't consider us married because we've never had any kind of ceremony.
Smithson
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:58 am

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby jazzman » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:04 am

Smithson wrote:
jazzman wrote:Why bother getting officially married when a Buddhist ceremony is all that is required to comply with local mores?


If a married couple has a combined income of B40,000 per month they can apply for a one year visa...
At the time we weren't thinking about buying land and I didn't realize the implications, however in hindsight I think I still would have proceeded with the registration. BTW, my wife doesn't consider us married because we've never had any kind of ceremony.


Thank you, that is valuable first-hand information of the kind that is most welcome. I have copied your reply to my topic leader on tbis subject.
-J
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby Smithson » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:46 pm

^ Although it looks like I would have been better doing things in the opposite order. Not to worry. A large portion of the funds are from our savings and the rest is borrowed and being paid back by the both of us. My wife considers the land as ours, not hers or mine. I think this is very important, why would she take something she already has?

We work together and started doing OK, my wife wanted to buy land, which is something I said I would never do but it's her money also, so she gets a say in how it's spent.

Also, I used a lawyer, it was 20K, which included him driving several hours, explaining the agreement to my wife, talking to the land department staff and paying their extra 'fee'. He also checked the chanote and s

I agree this is expensive considering I could have done a lot of it myself but considering the time saving and peace of mind I think it's money well spent, especially when several million is involved in the purchase.
Smithson
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:58 am

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby jazzman » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:11 pm

Smithson wrote:I agree this is expensive considering I could have done a lot of it myself but considering the time saving and peace of mind I think it's money well spent.


That's a very fair and balanced comment, but although the fees probably cover the driving time and distance for it's a handsome remuneration for a day's very easy work. I am sometimes dismayed at the tactics some lawyers use to get their clients. One is to shill heavily for one's self in forums, and possibly hinting that a local lawyer would not be able to do this for a farang and at a quarter of the of the price. Foreign lawyers are not allowed to practice in Thailand, but doing a usufruct for a client is not a law service and is permitted.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby thomas.fontaine » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:22 pm

First post from Jazzman was very clear on what to do to obtain an Usufruct. And this is what I will be doing very soon.

Does anybody in this forum already had experience in doing an Usufruct in the Khon Kaen district? If yes, are the Land Office clerks there aware of how to do it if I am going on my own without any lawyer to explain? Alternatively, does anybody know a local lawyer in Khon Kaen that could stay on stand by in case I can't make myself clear on what I try to do ?
thomas.fontaine
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:11 pm
Location: Paris / Kuala Lumpur / Khon Kaen

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby AussieBoy » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:26 am

unless you get your own legal advice theres a lot to think about , as to what is true or not read this link and comment, http://thailawforum.com/blog/acquisitio ... fruct.html

http://www.bangkoklawonline.com/usufruct_online.html

http://www.samuiforsale.com/leasehold.htm

I used a right of habitation http://www.samuiforsale.com/Habitation.htm for my property in Udon, very easy to do, they had the forms at the Lands office in english thai, cost less than 200B all up with fees and photocoping, easy to fill out. My name was put on the deed, after that the GF went to transport office of registration , showed photo of our home, and title of proterty her id card and my passport , she got a Blue book, with our names in it, then she changed her ID card and drivers license address to new home, some where along the line we were at the local police station for her address to be put in passport, some more stamps, my passport coppied, all up took about 4 hours between the different departments.
Strange thing was I asked her how they know photo of home was on our block, could have took photo any home and said it was on our block, I guess they check it one day.
The blue book department kept the photo of the home, and a form from the OZ embassy in BKK saying that I was single, which we got in BKK last trip as we were going to get married , put off till new year, the form was translated into Thai and registered in BKK at what I think was forieng Affairs building


heres a copy they gave me of the Habitation for life, seems a bit like a Usufruct, it was only 1 page Habitation, the Usufruct was 2 pages so I went with the 1 page, both looked the same in english with a few extra lines in the Usufruct about non transfeable and non removeable improvements to remain.

As my fence and house or built on stumps I could remove them to another site, so I went with this form below Right of Habitation

ASSIGNMENT OF LAND CONTRACT ( NON OF EXPENSE ) ALL NATURAL LIFE PERIOD HABITATION




Both of assignor and assignee are hereby agree as following ;

1. The owner / assignor …………………….. permit to ………………… , assignee , to be right ownership and access of the above land since 21 March 2008 to all natural life period.
2. The owner / assignor do not received any expense fees from assignee.
3. The assignee to be right ownership of the ,land use, building construction upon and agriculture fruits all natural life period habitation.
4. The assignee to be right ownership of buildings and access to remove improvements argiculture fruits when alive natural life period
5. There are non expense or rendition for the owner / assignor.

This contract have been issued by three (3) sets which all details are the same .
One is for office of lands , the owner/assignor and the assignee to be have one each. ( This set is for ……………………. / assignee )

Both of assignor and assignee have considered , checked and accepted this contract with signed this as hereunder .

……………………………………….. Owner/Assignor

……………………………………….. The Assignee

………………………………………. Witness

……………………………………….. Witness


This contract have been issued by front

………………………………………….. Lands Officer

Position Stamp
User avatar
AussieBoy
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: Outback Oz/ Udon Thani

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby dozer » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:21 am

I used a right of habitation
Unless I'm wrong that is the same as a usufruct (just called a different term), since that is the definition, right of habitation for life.
dozer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1940
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:21 pm

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby AussieBoy » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:24 pm

There must be a few people around, I seen a few leases and Usufruct and thought what a nightmare, some were several pages long just to rent/ use land, after some internet search, and found Right of Habitation/ usufruct just one page long, what more can you want to put into agreement, must be some untrusting Farang or totally nieve, and just listen to first lawer they find, Pays to research any subjects
User avatar
AussieBoy
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: Outback Oz/ Udon Thani

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby thomas.fontaine » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:20 pm

I would suspect that the right for habitation gives you the right to live in your house only, while usufruct would also give you the possibility to make money out of the Land (rental, production of fruits...).
thomas.fontaine
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:11 pm
Location: Paris / Kuala Lumpur / Khon Kaen

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby pklongball » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:22 pm

jazzman wrote:Note again that this is all done at the Province Land Office and not at the district or sub-district office, and that not all Land Offices will entertain a usufruct.



I am especially interested in this last statement? Where is this rule written? In the Thai Civil Code? Can you expound on this point more please? In my case the Province Land office is Rayong. Do they keep the original Chanote in that office?

Thanks
The complete picture story of our house build can be found here--My Gallery!
User avatar
pklongball
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:32 am
Location: Ban Chang-Phala Beach

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby ThailandTiger » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:21 pm

Can anyone confirm if a Usufruct is limited to any particular types of title? Being that it was originally designed to allow for the long term use of land for agriculture, I wouldn't expect any problems with the lesser titles, but I'd be interested to hear the experiences of others.
ThailandTiger
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:04 am
Location: Kanchanaburi

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby jazzman » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:29 pm

pklongball wrote:Note again that this is all done at the Province Land Office and not at the district or sub-district office, and that not all Land Offices will entertain a usufruct.

I am especially interested in this last statement? Where is this rule written? In the Thai Civil Code? Can you expound on this point more please? In my case the Province Land office is Rayong. Do they keep the original Chanote in that office?

Thanks

Hi Pklong,

I don't think there is much to be gained by requoting a complete information article. Quotes can be edited so that they only reproduce the relevant statement. The article is already very informative, in fact it includes information that some lawyers we know actually charge a lot of money for. I don't recall mentioning that the abovie statement had anything to do with the Civil Code. I was simply stating the facts as they are, and unless you are going to do a degree in Thail law, there is probably little to be gained in obtaining information about the usufruct that is not relevant to your situation,n or if the usufruct is not a solutin you personally favour.As province Land Offices are allowed a certain measure of autonomy in how they apply, or don't apply, the usufruct facility, the only way to expound is to go along to your Land Office and find out - like I did.
The Chanote is a title deed, and as such, like in most civilised countries, the document is the property of the owner. If you become the holder of a usufruct, your name is entered on it (see the erticle).

Hope this helps.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Getting full control of land through USUFRUCT

Postby pklongball » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:23 am

Thanks Jazzman,

It seems here in the local land office they are running a business on the side with the local lawyers.

If you inquire with the land officers here in Banchang they will tell you they do not do usufructs here and only do a lease. When we made the land transfer from the seller to my wife last week and she asked the officer about making a lease on the land the officer told her she needs to talk to Khun xxx about the lease contract. Khun xxx is the lawyer we spoke with originally about usufruct and leases. So it is becoming apparent that the land officer and the lawyer have a special "arrangement" about lease contracts. The lawyer quoted us 20k baht to help us get a lease at the local land office. For now we will wait and sort this out later.
The complete picture story of our house build can be found here--My Gallery!
User avatar
pklongball
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:32 am
Location: Ban Chang-Phala Beach

PreviousNext

Return to legal and finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron