Estimation cost

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Re: Estimation cost

Postby pattayapope » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:41 am

It would be nice to think that builders only made 15 to 20% profit but the fact is they make much more otherwise you would not see so many expat builders in the tourist locations building houses and in most case a lot of them are not a lot more expensive than some Thai builders. I think we all agree that a bungalow can be built to western standards for around 6000 baht m2, so how much is a fair profit for the builder to make each day to cover his salary and overheads[*] :?:

I would not think less than 2000 baht per day and if I were building it would certainly not be less than 5000 baht and probably more like 10,000 baht. To ilustrate this I made simple spreedsheet ilustrating a 300 M2 build that took 5 months to build at 6000 baht M2 for materials and labour, you can see the pecentage profits and change the M2 area and build cost M2 to suit.

Builder mark up.xls
Builder expense and profit
(18 KiB) Downloaded 141 times


I admire those CTH members who have supervised a crew to build a house but in most cases people don't have the skills or time to look after a build so we have no other choice but to pay the price.
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:05 am

The Boq don't come from a builder !!!

My "probléme" is that the builders here want all ,1800 to 2000 bahts for m2 only for the work without material !

And i have only 5000 bahts for m2 for all ! 152m2 inside ! ( air con ,kitchen , i have already like all furniture)

So if for you Max the work is only 17% ! my construction will be around 12000 Bahts m2 !!!

and for you is only around 6000 bahts m2 ...or mybe i am wrong to do the maths :(

because if i follow my 5000 m2 i will need to find a builder for only 900 bahts m2!... it will be impossible ? or what are you thincking about ?


the big question is : is it possible to buy all material for 3000 bahts per m2 ! (breeze block ciment rebar ect ) maybe not painting , i can wait a litle to do it ..but i need a house very quick to live inside ..and make nicer slowly (in 2 yaers time)

I really need your help...
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby geordie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:10 am

Hi max i was being sarcastic about rich farrangs :oops: :oops: :oops:
I the same as many others have worked all my life so i can have a bit of retirement unfortunately knackerd my body doing it so not as enjoyable as it should have been

your excel spreadsheet is exellent and i thank you for the effort you have put into it on behalf of myself and future users the point i was trying to make is the amount of fine detail that gets overlooked you have bought and realize now how mutch would be absent from a builders quote (the fine details)
it would take forever to list all the smaller esentials so it gets lumped on elswhere which is the point i was trying to emphasisize so someone with no experience will look at a quote and realize he has topped stuff up to cover unlisted items not just to steal extra profits
this is what i was describing as a gut feeling the builder knows roughly how mutch to allow for bits and pieces but purely as a guesstimate
does anyone realize that to western standards means very little to a guy who has never worked more than 60km from his village :roll: :roll: :roll:
We all go along and propose western standards that do not exist it varies from country to country and he has to quote against this a virtual unknown so the question is are we being fair to the builder???
Sunpax ? has a limited budget to achieve a build and the information has so far been misleading my sugestion would be take a look at the jazman hotel or even otis who achieved a low cost reasonable standard to start saying 6000 bht a square meter 10000 a square meter
and then use a hihgh spec build to acheive that figure using superblock and a tiled roof
where concrete and a fiber cement roof may not be as pretty but will fall more in line with the available budget allowing the build to be acheived
i love the thai logic of 4mtr blocksit allows for easy later addition when funds allow so if the budget is very tight get a modest build done and add a couple of rooms later but plan for it ahead and allow for it through the build
stage one build
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:33 am

By now Max&bee have build their home for around 6000 bahts (and that even with ac blocks !), and Otis around 4000 bahts and not 10000 bahts !

My land is too small to build on one fllor only ! i thinck maybe built the 1 floor first and the second in a year time but how to do that ? need a roof no ? or is the ciment floor for the second fllor enought for a roof ? and the pilar, stairs ? it seems impossible for me to do that way !
If I build now only the second fllor ! where do i put the kitchen and all my things ? because the terrasse of the second floor is the roof of a room downstairs !and then how to do with the stairs !

The BOQ i have doesn't mean nothing to me ! is so many wrong things inside that i know ! and for the rest by exemple footing , fundation i cannot say nothing because i don't know how may rebar need for that !
so it's mean i am without any informations for the building material !

Ps. boq say need x doors when i need only Y ect ect ect...grrr
only for the roof she has quote around 250 000 only for material :( and 87000 b for work ! for a very simple roof with sinthetic tiles !!!
or 12000 for a water tank when i don't need it (get waterfrom village)
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Max&Bee-in-CM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:52 am

Sunpax wrote:By now Max&bee have build their home for around 6000 bahts , and Otis around 4000 bahts and not 10000 bahts !

My land is too small to build on on fllor only ! i thinck maybe built the 1 floor first and the second in a year time but how to do that ? need a roof no ? or is the ciment floor for the second fllor enought for a roof ? and the pilar, stairs ? it seems impossible for me to do that way !
I f I build now only the second fllor ! where do i put the kitchen and all my things ? because the terrasse of the second fllor in the roof of a room downstairs !


Can I suggest something that may save costs - tell your builder now you can only build the concrete structure, so basically dig the foundation holes, make rebar feet, pour the foundation cement, make the rebar for the columns, make the forms, pour cement, make the ground and first floor beams, make the second floor floor, make the second floor columns - just do the rebar and cement frame, and get a cost from him. Should take about 6 weeks for all that, the materials used and hence costs are fairly easy to calculate, so you can compare your calculations to the builder quote. My gut feeling for this "concrete skeleton" should be about 250,000 to 300,000 materials and labour and take about 6 weeks or so.

Tell the builder after this is complete, you will attempt to get more money and continue - if you like his quality sign a new contract for phase 2, if not, find a new builder to finish off. This way it is harder for the builder to hide costs from you, and you get a more cost effective structure.

Are you close to CM?
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:58 am

Hello Max...do you mean 250000 for work and material ?

No not CM i am between Surat Thani and Nakhon si Thammarat .

I've Just look to the BOQ (not from builder): for footing 1st and 2nd structure = 465000 all together !
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Max&Bee-in-CM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:14 am

Sunpax wrote:Hello Max...do you mean 250000 for work and material ?

No not CM i am between Surat Thani and Nakhon si Thammarat .


Yes total cost - if you have 6 workers wrking for 6 weeks 6 days a week, for 300 baht per day each, that comes to:

300 baht x 6 people x 6 days x 6 weeks = 64,800 for the workers (not including builder).

The rebar will cost maybe 80,000 to 100,000

The concrete you will need (very rough estimate only):
10 cubes for foundations
10 cubes for all the columns
20 cubes for ground and first floor beams
20 cubes for the floors (ground and top)

So total concrete = 60 cubes at about 1600 per cube = 96,000

Add say 15,000 for wood and rental of forms, and some miscellaneous.

Total = 275,800 Then add the builder markup on top....

This is very very rough estimate, but you know your house design much better than me so can calculate the number of columns and total lengths of all ground beams, and can get much better estimates of the concrete and rebar needed. For example, a ground beam is 20cm wide and 30cm high, so you can calculate 1 cube of concrete = how much length of ground beam. A column is 20cm by 20cm, so you can calculate a 3m high column will use X amount of cube of concrete.
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:21 am

You say :"This is very very rough estimate"...but it's 200 000 bahts difference with my BOQ !
even if it's very rought you know what you talking about and it cannot be so far ! and 200 000 bahts "difference is really something !

So you now know why i cannot follow this BOQ :(
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby otis-a » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:52 am

flash:
per Jon aka ''baron von johann'' as he have 4 homes on his property- 1st built 2002 last build 2005
it is his opinion that houses in south are more expensive than in north-
perhaps by factor of 2
since norway consular services are in pattayi he is regular there and hue hen -
is just his opinion as a long term expat here
fyi only
where to park dog when in town? A barking lot... :-)))
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Max&Bee-in-CM » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:24 am

Sunpax wrote:You say :"This is very very rough estimate"...but it's 200 000 bahts difference with my BOQ !
even if it's very rought you know what you talking about and it cannot be so far ! and 200 000 bahts "difference is really something !

So you now know why i cannot follow this BOQ :(


I think just forcus on getting accurate costs for the concrete skeleton - as mentioned before you can easily calculate the volume of one columns:

20 cm x 20 cm wide, total height = 2.5 metres underground + 3 metres ground floor + 3 metres first floor = 8.5 metres.
Volume = 0.2 x 0.2 x 8.5 = 0.34 cubic metres.
So 3 columns will use 3 x 0.34 = 1.02 cubes of concrete.

If you have 30 columns in your house, then the total cocnrete used from the footings to the top of the first floor (for the columns) is simply
30 columns x 0.34 per columns = 10.2 cubes.

If each cube costs 1600 baht (ready mix from a truck, delivered), then the costs of all the column cement = 10.2 x 1600 = 16,320 baht.

Similar for rebar, one piece is 6m long, you will need about 5 pieces per total column, plus the smaller metal to ties the rebar in squares, and also
some times. If we assume that one length of rebar costs about 650 baht, and add 200 baht for the smaller metal, the the rebar cost per column is
2800 baht. If you have 30 columns, then thats 30 x 2800 = 84,000

It will take 6 workers about 1 day to put cement in the 30 columns, so the labour cost = 6 x 300 = 1800 baht.

It will take then same 6 workers about 2 days to put the form molds around the columns, and maybe 3 days to make the rebar. So the labour
costs for this = (5 days x 6 workers x 300 salary ) = 9000 baht

So your total costs for all the columns = 16320 cement + 84,000 rebar + 1800 labour + 9000 labour = 111,120

Once again, check your area costs for rebar and cement, and the day rate for labour, and also the number of columns you have in your house, and
you can get a very accurate cost (dont forget the rental of the forms, maybe 2,000 baht worth).
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:57 am

Again thanck you for your help and to take the time to answer me !

Max do you mean rental form for fundations ...and column ,only 2000 bahts ? because on my BOQ is 43000 bahts for the form !
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby jazzman » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Around 40,000 baht is roughly correct for the amount of formwork wood for a project of this size.

There are arguments for and against renting reusable forms. The box type can of course only be used for the columns, but there are others available for the flat sides of standard ground beams and ring beams. They can be very time saving.

Wooden formwork always fits perfectly because it is custom cut on site. An experienced team can therefore install it in not much more time than it takes to fiddle with the rented reusable forms.

However, local, privately hired construction teams are concerned with the global salary value of the project for them, and will often see the use of time saving elements as a reduction in the labour time, and hence their earnings potential.

The formwork wood is never wasted. Once it has been used for concrete, it will be used for dozens of other jobs around the site, so you will still need to buy some general purpose wood.
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Max&Bee-in-CM » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Sunpax wrote:Again thanck you for your help and to take the time to answer me !

Max do you mean rental form for fundations ...and column ,only 2000 bahts ? because on my BOQ is 43000 bahts for the form !


I am referring to rental of the forms for the columns only, we generally rent the 8" by 6 or 8" by 3, for about 1,000 baht for a few days. Some
receipts attached on rental costs.

We also used wood we purchased, to construct the forms, a 3m length by 8" being about 180 baht, plus some connecting wood, so these
are also used to make forms. The wood can be used a few times before it gets either too bent or cut out of shape for the various molds.

If you want to save costs, buy 12 pieces of wood, and make several column molds, then do a few columns per day, taking off the molds the next
day and making the next set. Thats what we do now, turns out much cheaper than renting. But you have to have other tasks for the workers to do
while the concrete is setting.

We have spent over 45,000 on rental of molds and purchase of wood for molds, but that includes a 380 sqm house, 100 sqm garage, 16 sqm water
house, the bottom part of the observatory house which is 36 sqm, 8 columns for the front fence, and various footpaths around the house. If
they are quoting you 40,000 for a 250+ sqm house, well you can do the maths, to me it looks double price! However that is a quote I would expect
from a builder or similar, rental and buying yourself would be cheaper.
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:05 pm

Max say :
We have spent over 45,000 on rental of molds and purchase of wood for molds, but that includes a 380 sqm house, 100 sqm garage, 16 sqm water
house, the bottom part of the observatory house which is 36 sqm, 8 columns for the front fence, and various footpaths around the house. If
they are quoting you 40,000 for a 250+ sqm house, well you can do the maths, to me it looks double price! However that is a quote I would expect
from a builder or similar, rental and buying yourself would be cheaper
..............

My house will be 152 m2 on 2 floors ...and around 20 m2 outside terasse.
Will be good , if i can use the wood forms for something else like stairs or inside decoration ? like Jazzman say !
it will be pity to put away all these wood ! so I really need to thinck about if i have the choice...!
It's so many question to ask to a builder ! ( and not easy when not speak Thai )
well its really a challenge !

Thanck you again :)
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Re: Estimation cost

Postby Sunpax » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:01 pm

Today, after looking at my plans and boq...I like to know your thincking about the rebar !

Will be a 2 stories house (152m2) but the main structure will be only on 70 m2 + 70 m2 upstairs !

So what kind of rebar will I need for foundations and structures ? I mean for the bigger one ?
12mm, 16mm or 20 mm ?

Is it by exemple enought to work with 12mm instead the 16 mm ?

Sure that I don't want my house collapse !!!

try to do the more with the less I have ,without to cut to many corners...only to know if it save or not ?
Thanck's a lot
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