Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Almost everything that needs to be said about concrete, cement, hand-mixing, uses and prices has been said on this forum. Please check out the contributions before posting new questions.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL, pattayapope

Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Beon » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:15 pm

Was going to use Chaang Deang (Red Elephant) portland cement for my project, but it is hard to find here.

Most suggestions Ive got so far is to go with Nok Insee Phet (Diamond Bird) instead, and they claim it cures faster too.

I need it for 2.5 m footings, ground beams, floors and posts on a single storey house. There is a 15 B price difference in Nok Insee Phet's favour, but I dont care much about that; we're only talking about a difference of 3000 B for the entire house (190 bags), I just want to be sure to use good enough stuff.

What are your experience with these? Are they fairly equivalent?

Thanks.
Beon
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Chiang Dao

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby jazzman » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:34 pm

More important than the brand is to know what grade of cement you should be using for a particular job. Therein lies the price difference.
The variety of different grades of cement can be confusing. Your foreman will be able to explain the differences to you.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Beon » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:05 pm

Thanks for the reply Jazzman.

The question was not about brands, but comparing two specific products. Nok Insee Phet is Portland Type-1 cement, and Chaang Daeng is the same type and grade AFAIK. The Chang Daeng is manufactured in Lampang for the Chiang Mai province, which the Nok Insee siders claim has a lower quality quarry than the Nok Insee one (dont remember where that one is made).

As mentioned, the job is footings 2.5 m deep, ground beams, slabs on beam and 3 m tall posts. It's the load bearing parts of a simple single storey house.

Its hard to find someone completely neutral; the shops of course favour the particular brand they sell, and the builders usually source from the same shop over and over so they can get good price and credit.

One common reply though is to not use a medium grade cement like Sua Kiaow (Green Tiger) for posts of a house.
Beon
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Chiang Dao

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby jazzman » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:22 pm

Beon wrote:One common reply though is to not use a medium grade cement like Sua Kiaow (Green Tiger) for posts of a house.

I would use portland for all load bearing and load carrying elements. Rumour (but only rumour) has it that Nok Insi is a better brand of portland.
An engineer's spec would be for a grade of cement and/or the steng of the concrete mix rather than a brand - which really just repeats what i said in my post above. I would suggest that local preferences for one bran,d over another are subjective - someone in a locality started using one particular brand in large quantities, and all the others followed suit, and that's what the local suppliers now stock.. Common enough.

Boon Kiow or Green Tiger is a GP cement used mainly for brickwork.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby developer3d » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:45 pm

As both Nok Insee Petch and Chaang Daeng are both ASTM C150 Type 1 so they are considered "equivalents"

The INSEE Dum product is Portland Type 3 - ( high early strength )

There are two common "bagged cement" grades sold in Thailand for hand mix + many other "speciality products" like INSEE Dum.

They are commonly badged as "Red" Branded Products which include TPI Red and Elephant Brand and Rajasri Red ( and INSEE Petch which is in a blue bag ) - all these are ordinary portland cement and they all are manufactured in accordance ASTM C150 1 which makes them suitable for construction concrete work requiring high compressive strength.

The "Green" Branded Products including TPI green, Tiger and Rajasri Green are actually ordinary portland cement blended with crushed limestone - this reduces the cost, improves plasticity but also significantly reduces the final strength of the product.

As has been mentioned by other members the cost difference between Red and Green Branded Products is a only a few % and on a modest house this works out to be insignificant, however the difference in the strength of the finished products is very significant indeed.

After 7 days the compressive strength of a concrete cube correctly produced using ( Tiger Green brand ) was 173 kgf/cm2

The same test for Red ( Elephant brand ) ASTM 1 came in at 290 kgf/cm2

The engineering units don't matter here the relevant point is that Red is more than 40 % stronger for a few baht more per bag.

I accept that this might not be a major issue for you and you might not "need" the extra strength on your build but when you consider the cost I don't understand why anyone would specify / accept green for any concrete construction.

Several members have already mentioned in previous thread that the most important factor about concretes final strength and durability is water / portland ratio so make sure its not too wet, I have been watching how Thai Builders tend to add too much water to the mix to make it easier to move around or worse make up for the "short last load" if its CPAC - what "too much water means" has been covered in previous threads.

And finally with all else being equal the best strongest and most durable concrete will always come from the mix with the best graded, strongest, best shaped, and cleanest aggregate
User avatar
developer3d
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:23 pm

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Beon » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:24 pm

Thanks developer3d, very informative post.

We ended up using Chaang Deang for all load bearing parts, and Sua Kiow Super for everything else; brick work, render, floor tiles, etc.

House is almost finished.
Beon
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Chiang Dao

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby dozer » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:40 pm

There are different characteristics of the two cements which make them ideal for different tasks as I understand it. The The Sua (tiger) drys slower and is normally selected for mortar or rendering or tiles while the Chang Daeng is good for everything else.
dozer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1940
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:21 pm

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby developer3d » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:31 pm

I appreciate this has the potential to bore the pants of anyone not interested in watching concrete dry.... :(

The VICAT TEST for both the Thai Industrial Standard for Mixed Cement TIS 80-2517 ( Green ) and ASTM C150 - Type 1 ( Red ) are the same having an identical initial Set time of not less than 45 Mins so the real "advantage" of green is in the plasticity ie its easier to work with for "mortar" work and has less risk of thermal cracking, remembering if you are using Superblock you must use the specialist mastic not regular mortar.

For plastering work there are several specialist mixes readily available in Thailand.

Most plaster mixes are "premixed" in bag with aggregate and chemicals to reduce shrinkage ( cracking ) so all you have to do is add water and again they are a little more expensive than "Green Tiger" but they are really good and stick to the wall well I have not done much plastering work and I am finding the "stickiness" of the premix easier.

This is one I have been messing around with, its from the same Tiger brand.

portland-cement-mixes-3.jpg


I know its a loose argument but the guys who make Tiger Green make this plastering mix so they must feel their is some advantage as well.
User avatar
developer3d
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:23 pm

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby geordie » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:14 pm

definately not a boring subject looking at the compression tests for the sake of a few baht the place could come down around your ears those of us who are in the process of building a HOME would no doubt prefer it outlasted us probably why we spend so mutch time on here sharing info really
my comments may be wrong but never deliberately
If it aint broke, dont fix it
User avatar
geordie
 
Posts: 3867
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:39 am

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Beon » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:03 pm

We tried a wall section with Sua Faa (blue tiger for plaster), and another section with Sua Kiow Super (standard mortar) mixed with Nam Yaa (plasticizer). The Sua Faa wall had a somewhat smoother finish, but after paint was applied there was no noticeable difference between the two. I would say that its more in the skill of the craftsman how the final result will be. Perhaps Sua Faa might not crack as easy, hard to tell.

I think its the same story with laying tiles. You could use the special premixed tile mortar which is double price and the work will be easier because its sticky and sets very quick, or you could use ordinary Sua Kiow and work a bit harder to get the same result.

FYI, prices in Chiang Dao:

Sua Kiow Super, mortar: 95B / 40kg (in stock).
Sua Faa, plaster: 117 B /40 kg (special order from Chiang Mai).
Sua Daeng, portland: 115 B /40 kg (special order from Chiang Mai).
Tile mortar 120 B / 20 kg.
Beon
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Chiang Dao

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby jazzman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:58 pm

Ordinary cement is not used for plastering. Special cement is used. In addition to which it is advisable to add a plasiciser to avoid it cracking. Cement does not dry - it cures. Rendering of outside walls should on no account be done in direct sunlight or when the ambient air is very hot. That will cause the cement to dry, which is exactly what it is not supposed to do. There is, I believe, quite a lot of info about all this on various threads in this forum.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:28 pm

I have no idea.... that's not a good start..... about stickiness of Thai cement, however a German friend of mine conned me into blasting a wine cellar into the hill, 4 foot from his back wall which was all glass. We used portland cement after the besser blocks were lade and one thing that sticks in my mind about the cement rendering, which I have never seen done in Thailand, was that the sand had to be sifted. Anything that didn't go through the sieve was tossed to one side. The resulting mix was like a paste. The rendered area was then draped in wet hessian for a week and watered daily. It has never cracked. There was no plasticide used.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5284
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby Beon » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:50 pm

jazzman wrote:Ordinary cement is not used for plastering. Special cement is used. In addition to which it is advisable to add a plasiciser to avoid it cracking.


Sua Faa (Blue tiger) is a special cement to use for render. Contains plasticizer already, no need to add more.

Sua Kiow is an ordinary cement used for mortar and misc other stuff. Can be used for render as well if you add Naam Yaa (plasticizer). I would say it is the most common method for render up here, since Sua Faa is difficult to find.
Beon
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Chiang Dao

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby jazzman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:29 pm

Don't just call it naam yaa - it refers to many different kinds of additives for concrete as well as other things in Thai. Look for Sika brand - it has the instructions on the container in both, Thai and English.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
Don't let this happen in YOUR house.
jazzman
 
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Thailand

Re: Portland cement: Elephant vs Diamond

Postby geordie » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:07 pm

rodger the sand they used on the mum inlaw house was all washed through a net in effect sieving it i assumed this was standard practice to the extent that the larger grains are used for a decorative non slip finish jazman can tell more he educated me on it
it looks nice but labour intensive

???is the washing standard for render//i know in the uk we use fine sharp sand and after the wash thats what they were left with the coarser stuf getting thrown
my comments may be wrong but never deliberately
If it aint broke, dont fix it
User avatar
geordie
 
Posts: 3867
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:39 am

Next

Return to cement, concrete and mortar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest