Silver foil does work

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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby pipoz » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:29 pm

Andyfteeze wrote:just had a thought!!! lol
remember E=MC^C
e= energy ( heat if you Like)
M= Mass
anything to do with movement of mass or energy or even movement itself follows the above equation
high energy = high MASS
I keep telling you guys, its to do with the mass of the foil.
reflection, convection and conduction are all measures of how the MASS is performing.
remember you have a 60^c furnace 2-6 inches above the foil. NOTHING will stop it from heating up. no amount of reflection will stop it. so what else is in play, may I ask?
now I will say a small mass for the last time this year. lol

the better form of Material has foil on two sides with an insulating barrier sandwiched in the middle. A hybrid if you like. but its still has the limitation that it still heats up over time.( that's where pink batts came into play in Australia. but you cant really use glass batts here because of the humidity. polyester batts on the other hand are almost ideal. but its horses for courses, not the most cost effective method to use in this situation. foil under the roof is ideal, all things considered, in this situation.)
stop it, your making me come out of retirement and think too much!


Maybe, but in my humble view, it is more about designing-building a practical house that others will live in, long after I have departed this planet and getting that leg over the girlfriend-wife, every night until that time comes.

Thai's seem to tolerate the heat and condition much better than we do and to them, just having a well cooled bedroom and some nice open Sala's areas outside, seems to keep most of them very. I haven't seen too many Thais that spend most of their time inside the house during the heat of the day.

If you want to keep a Thai outside then just leave a few LEO's on the Porch

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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:37 pm

Andyfteeze wrote:just had a thought!!! lol
remember E=MC^C
e= energy ( heat if you Like)
M= Mass
anything to do with movement of mass or energy or even movement itself follows the above equation
high energy = high MASS
I keep telling you guys, its to do with the mass of the foil.
reflection, convection and conduction are all measures of how the MASS is performing.
remember you have a 60^c furnace 2-6 inches above the foil. NOTHING will stop it from heating up. no amount of reflection will stop it. so what else is in play, may I ask?
now I will say a small mass for the last time this year. lol

the better form of Material has foil on two sides with an insulating barrier sandwiched in the middle. A hybrid if you like. but its still has the limitation that it still heats up over time.( that's where pink batts came into play in Australia. but you cant really use glass batts here because of the humidity. polyester batts on the other hand are almost ideal. but its horses for courses, not the most cost effective method to use in this situation. foil under the roof is ideal, all things considered, in this situation.)
stop it, your making me come out of retirement and think too much!


Sorry no cigar

Mass has little effect the only effect more mass would have is to take longer to heat up and longer to cool down

reflection and conduction are all measures of how the surface is performing. Not the mass. More mass will store more heat energy.

Heat a 100kg polished aluminium cube (with a heat proof clear coating to stop rust) to 300degC
Heat a 100kg black steel hollow cube with the same outer dimensions as the aluminium cube to 300degC

The black steel cube will radiate much more heat than the polished aluminium cube
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:41 pm

pipoz wrote:
Andyfteeze wrote:just had a thought!!! lol
remember E=MC^C
e= energy ( heat if you Like)
M= Mass
anything to do with movement of mass or energy or even movement itself follows the above equation
high energy = high MASS
I keep telling you guys, its to do with the mass of the foil.
reflection, convection and conduction are all measures of how the MASS is performing.
remember you have a 60^c furnace 2-6 inches above the foil. NOTHING will stop it from heating up. no amount of reflection will stop it. so what else is in play, may I ask?
now I will say a small mass for the last time this year. lol

the better form of Material has foil on two sides with an insulating barrier sandwiched in the middle. A hybrid if you like. but its still has the limitation that it still heats up over time.( that's where pink batts came into play in Australia. but you cant really use glass batts here because of the humidity. polyester batts on the other hand are almost ideal. but its horses for courses, not the most cost effective method to use in this situation. foil under the roof is ideal, all things considered, in this situation.)
stop it, your making me come out of retirement and think too much!


Maybe, but in my humble view, it is more about designing-building a practical house that others will live in, long after I have departed this planet and getting that leg over the girlfriend-wife, every night until that time comes.

Thai's seem to tolerate the heat and condition much better than we do and to them, just having a well cooled bedroom and some nice open Sala's areas outside, seems to keep most of them very. I haven't seen too many Thais that spend most of their time inside the house during the heat of the day.

If you want to keep a Thai outside then just leave a few LEO's on the Porch

pipoz


And if you use the cheap Thai foil and foam on the underside of the Sala roof like Grand Mums new house they are even more happy as the shaded area feels much cooler.
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby pipoz » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:01 pm

Maybe, but in my humble view, it is more about designing-building a practical house that others will live in, long after I have departed this planet and getting that leg over the girlfriend-wife, every night until that time comes.

Thai's seem to tolerate the heat and condition much better than we do and to them, just having a well cooled bedroom and some nice open Sala's areas outside, seems to keep most of them very happy. I haven't seen too many Thais that spend most of their time inside the house during the heat of the day.

If you want to keep a Thai outside then just leave a few LEO's on the Porch

pipoz[/quote]

And if you use the cheap Thai foil and foam on the underside of the Sala roof like Grand Mums new house they are even more happy as the shaded area feels much cooler.[/quote]


I agree STWW, sometimes the best for the Thai circumstance, is that which is the most simple and comfortable for them.

We are building houses (in Thailand I might add), not NASA Space Shuttles

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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby fredlk » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:07 pm

pipoz wrote:We are building houses (in Thailand I might add), not NASA Space Shuttles

Could have fooled me. :lol:
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby pipoz » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:10 pm

fredlk wrote:
pipoz wrote:We are building houses (in Thailand I might add), not NASA Space Shuttles

Could have fooled me. :lol:


Highly possible :roll:
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby BKKBILL » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:01 pm

Well I am enjoying this thread!

Guess me getting the foil backed gypsum was a good idea afterall. Must make a note to get the wife up there to do a little dusting. :mrgreen:
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:25 pm

BKKBILL wrote:Well I am enjoying this thread!

Guess me getting the foil backed gypsum was a good idea afterall. Must make a note to get the wife up there to do a little dusting. :mrgreen:

It certainly can't hurt any. And if you don't have other insulation it is a lot better than nothing, specially if you can persuade your wife to do some dusting from time to time.
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Ians » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:26 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
BKKBILL wrote:Well I am enjoying this thread!

Guess me getting the foil backed gypsum was a good idea afterall. Must make a note to get the wife up there to do a little dusting. :mrgreen:

It certainly can't hurt any. And if you don't have other insulation it is a lot better than nothing, specially if you can persuade your wife to do some dusting from time to time.


Lot's of luck on that suggestion :lol:
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby thailazer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:35 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Andyfteeze wrote:just had a thought!!! lol
remember E=MC^C
e= energy ( heat if you Like)
M= Mass
anything to do with movement of mass or energy or even movement itself follows the above equation
high energy = high MASS
I keep telling you guys, its to do with the mass of the foil.
reflection, convection and conduction are all measures of how the MASS is performing.
remember you have a 60^c furnace 2-6 inches above the foil. NOTHING will stop it from heating up. no amount of reflection will stop it. so what else is in play, may I ask?
now I will say a small mass for the last time this year. lol

the better form of Material has foil on two sides with an insulating barrier sandwiched in the middle. A hybrid if you like. but its still has the limitation that it still heats up over time.( that's where pink batts came into play in Australia. but you cant really use glass batts here because of the humidity. polyester batts on the other hand are almost ideal. but its horses for courses, not the most cost effective method to use in this situation. foil under the roof is ideal, all things considered, in this situation.)
stop it, your making me come out of retirement and think too much!


Sorry no cigar

Mass has little effect the only effect more mass would have is to take longer to heat up and longer to cool down

reflection and conduction are all measures of how the surface is performing. Not the mass. More mass will store more heat energy.

Heat a 100kg polished aluminium cube (with a heat proof clear coating to stop rust) to 300degC
Heat a 100kg black steel hollow cube with the same outer dimensions as the aluminium cube to 300degC

The black steel cube will radiate much more heat than the polished aluminium cube


We had a rental house several years back that had a ceramic tile roof. You could feel that baby radiating into the bedroom which had a very low ceiling until midnight as there was no insulation or foil in the attic. So.... heat mass does need to be taken into account in some way. One nice thing about steel roofs is that they cool off quite quickly when the sun goes down.
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Andyfteeze » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:13 pm

No cigar ah?
You are actually agreeing with me just not joining the dots in a straight line, lol
Your example doesnt prove your theory. 300c to alloy block and the same to iron means they both will burn your arse if you got close, lol. Where as if you heat one side of foil, you can get burnt if you touch it but you can get pretty close without any discomfort. PROVES mass does matter. No amount of twisted logic will change the fact. Your agreeing with me but taking a perpendicular twist to fit your model
Anyway , If you want to misinterpret the actual physics at play, believe what you will. Its been nice sparing with you. I wont try to change your mind any more. This man is not for turning, hahahah
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby sezze » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:01 pm

Mass certainly does matter . The lighter the mass the lesser amount of energy is (can be ) stored . Less mass means it looses all it's heat quickly . The silver foil does work because of the reflectivity and the lack of mass . As somebody stated , hold it above a flame and it will heat up very fat but it will loose it fast also . The surface is reflextive and that makes that the IR radiation will bounce off at one side ( little ) and not radiate out the other side ( less then darker surfaces ) . I did put a shiny foil glassfibre inulation underneath my steel sheet roof and it did do a biiiigg difference . Closing the doors and the room will not heat up anymore , and a big deal less then before . BTW it costs about 50baht /m2 ( 2inch glassfibre , unknown brand bought in GH ) .
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby meatpie » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:17 am

the best solution is to do the job right from start, this means removing iron roof, laying down wire mesh over the roof joists, then ! laying down foil BLANKET, the best rated you can buy is the go , i suggest 50mm or higher, if you cant get the thick stuff , put 2 layers of thin, THEN put the roof back on. , you now have a cool underside of roof and it looks better than tacking shitty foil under the roof , if you want to go 1 step further you can line the underside with a cladding or cement sheet, :D
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby olavhome » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:25 pm

Far asI can understand, roof inulations are usually done in theese 2 manners. But which are the best ??
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Re: Silver foil does work

Postby Ians » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:16 pm

It is an interesting discussion as to the best method, under tile / sheet, on top of the ceiling or both. My home has both, under the tiles and on top of the ceiling, but I'm still not sure or convinced that on top of the ceiling is a good method.
I have been monitoring the roof space temp. over the past few months and comparing it to the inside and outside temp. - todate I feel that the under tile arrangement is doing a great job, on a typical hot day temp. have been - outside 34/5, inside 29/30 and roof space 31/32, I'm not that happy with the drop in o/night inside temp. some mornings it is above the roof space and outside temp., I am at this stage putting this down to the ceiling insulation retarding the inside temp. or maybe latent heat in the internal brick work holding up the temp., more investigation later when the real testing starts during the hot session -- I will monitor it more closely and log the temp. and rise over the day and as best I can o/night.

More later for more discussion.
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