Land office procedures for chanotte

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Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby zebrafilm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:30 am

We have a piece of land in Chiang Mai, mountain side. We bought the land from a woman who 'bought the whole area and had cut it in pieces. All pieces had a "Nor Sor Sam Kor" paper and we are at the end of the road. This year we did some double checks we are not encroaching forest land because this happens a lot in our area but we are just safe.
Then we went to the Land Office Han Dong to check if we should ask for a Chanotte, instead of giving the information they went straight into the whole process because they did not see any reason not to issue it. That was a pleasant surprise although we could not get clear what steps they would make.
Last week the came to measure the land and this looked pretty old fashioned. I was expecting some satellite guidance but no , just a tape and some small stuf. Since nobody around us has a Chanotte they were a bit puzzled where to start....
It seemed they also brought a local official (maire?) of that area so it seemed well prepared. They also told us they invited the neighbours to be present. None appeared.

After measuring and comparing they found there was land missing and the poles /markers had been moved. They gave us a choice: Accept the current situation and loose 20 Wah or put the poles in the right place on the land of our neighbour. We opted for the last thing because that seemed the right way and our house design would need to be redone to fit the smaller plot.

Our neighbour is a nice UK fellow who has an AirBNB hut there he rents out with a big green in front. Luckily the marker near his house was ok but the other ons is in his green now. About 3.7 mtr in. Before we did this we told him also to do it but he found it not necessary. It seems the original woman 'took out' some four meter from both our plots to make a little garden and well herself although her house is much further in the Moo Baan.

We feel a bit bad about the whole situation and would like to settle it all in a peaceful way. The original seller still owns the road and is not an easy person. We are sure that will be a fight. Our British neighbour might understand it better but still not a nice situation for him. (and us)

We called the land office to hear what they would do but can't get a clear story. It seems they will write and invite everyone involved again and share the details so they can object. What happens then is unclear.

Question: can anybody fill us in on the Land Office procedures creating a Chanotte?
Which steps the land office will take and what to expect. ( when we came the first time they said it could take a year, guess from waiting because the measurement was done within a month)

We are in doubt if we should inform our neighbour directly or let it unfold, get it all official and then from a strong position talk. We are not sure what happens with protest or the lack off since we know he is not in TH this part of the year.

Our Thai family is laughing when I talk about 'strong' position, according to them the fact the the woman has connection with the airforce and military are more important then our 'official way'.

Another funny remark from the Land office was: Lucky your neighbour did not put up a fence otherwise we could not move the marker. Seems like the wild west. :-) who puts in the first pole has the rights. Even in the wrong spot.
So good to remember if you own unmarked land.

Feedback welcome because it is an awkward situation and we want to start building in November this year.
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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:11 pm

zebrafilm wrote:Our Thai family is laughing when I talk about 'strong' position, according to them the fact the the woman has connection with the airforce and military are more important then our 'official way'.

That can mean trouble or it might just be all talk, and to be honest I've played that game with Immigration too, as my uncle is a retired army officer from the armoured battalion at Sara Buri and if you are going to get offended and mouth off you know someone, then you'd better know them.
Private roads are a real pain, we have the same problem with our road as it has split down the middle and subsided on the side of the rice paddies and the owner is a real pain as her husband is a police general and she's his first wife. :D
I'd contact the neighbour, he'll understand and he'll thank you for being honest, his venum will then be directed at the lady who fleeced him.
Having the land upgraded is a waiting game and takes about 1 year, just so you remember who has the power at the land office. The fact that you are not in the National Park is a relief and now all you have to do is wait, then when the land is updated, wait another 4 years to get a full Chanote.
I'm just hoping, for your sake, that the land was not "given" as farming land to peasants and that the woman is not connected to an army scam, because sometimes the Land Office suddenly get cold feet and report incidents like that to the powers that be, and if they become offended then they just take all the land back.
It has been said, many times here, never buy any land unless a full Chanote goes with it.
Let the wheels churn, the man/woman at the land office is just displaying their power, when in actual fact if it is all on the up and up then it can be done in a week or less.
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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby zebrafilm » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:30 pm

Four years a chanotte? Seems excessive but we will see. We did some measurements on our own comparing papers and it seems the Land Office made some mistakes.
Guess they saw we got less m2 then we paid so they 'took' it from the neighbours. Strange that an official government body can make such a mess. :-)
We will see how this develops. Hope we can start building in November
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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:06 am

zebrafilm wrote:Four years a chanotte? Seems excessive but we will see. We did some measurements on our own comparing papers and it seems the Land Office made some mistakes.
Guess they saw we got less m2 then we paid so they 'took' it from the neighbours. Strange that an official government body can make such a mess. :-)
We will see how this develops. Hope we can start building in November

The time taken from the land office survey to the issue of a Chanote is variable anywhere from a few weeks (if they have been provided with tea) on up to years. It is very dependent upon the land office involved. In our case it was a couple of months from surveying to issuing the Chanote.
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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby pipoz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:52 pm

zebrafilm wrote:Four years a chanotte? Seems excessive but we will see. We did some measurements on our own comparing papers and it seems the Land Office made some mistakes.
Guess they saw we got less m2 then we paid so they 'took' it from the neighbours. Strange that an official government body can make such a mess. :-)
We will see how this develops. Hope we can start building in November


Suppose it depends on where you are. I first bought part of an old ladies land (one Rai out of the 3 Rai she owned)

It took them 3 months to come survey it and prepare the Chanote Title for the one Rai.

9 months later I bought another one Rai (from the same old lady) from the two she had left. This time it took around 4 months to get the survey done and the second Chanote Title Deed

I am pretty sure that a bottle or two of whiskey would have reduced that time by 50%

But that is in Udon Thani

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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:04 pm

zebrafilm wrote:All pieces had a "Nor Sor Sam Kor" paper and we are at the end of the road

As soon as I read the above, I issued warnings, here's why: https://www.thailandlawonline.com/36-nor-sor-sam
It was previously government land granted to a "farmer" then purchased by a rich person or taken as collateral and is now being flogged as private land. You'll get issued the next stage up within your 12 months, but to get a full chanote will take at least 4 years.
As I said, this has been covered extensively before on this forum, with lots and lots of warnings about buying Nor Sor Sam. I'll leave it at that, but never buy land unless it comes with a full Chanote.
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Re: Land office procedures for chanotte

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:49 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
zebrafilm wrote:All pieces had a "Nor Sor Sam Kor" paper and we are at the end of the road

As soon as I read the above, I issued warnings, here's why: https://www.thailandlawonline.com/36-nor-sor-sam
It was previously government land granted to a "farmer" then purchased by a rich person or taken as collateral and is now being flogged as private land. You'll get issued the next stage up within your 12 months, but to get a full chanote will take at least 4 years.
As I said, this has been covered extensively before on this forum, with lots and lots of warnings about buying Nor Sor Sam. I'll leave it at that, but never buy land unless it comes with a full Chanote.

If it was "Nor Sor Sam" not "Nor Sor Sam Kor" it's quite likely that you are correct. But the Nor Sor 3 title has more than 1 category within it and so the time you give may not be correct in the case of a Nor Sor Sam Kor title.

A land 'awaiting' a full title deed is granted the document Nor Sor 3 Kor.
The land is measured by the Land Department; therefore, it has its exact boundaries.
This type of land may be sold, transferred, or mortgaged in the same manner as land with freehold title deed (Chanote) as long as it is ready to be a full title deed.
In order to change the title to a Chanote, the owner of the land may file a petition to the Land Department to file a request to change it to a full title deed (Chanote), and the Land Department may do so if there is no opposition made against the petition.
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