No paperwork for land

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No paperwork for land

Postby Pjjpom » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:46 pm

I have recently joined Coolhousethai and wondered if I could have some advice from members with more knowledge of Thailand than me. My wife has finally achieved her dream of owning a particular block of land in her home village, this is near Somdet in Kalasin, I also think it is terrific and have started planning a house for her which keeps my brain working, most important.
When she paid for it to an old lady in the village I told her to get ownership registered and get land dept. to mark boundaries, don't worry said local village chief, all good. I have pushed the point again and have got no further with my request for a formal survey. My wife has no concerns and tells me it is now her land so no problems, the neighbours have marked th corners of their fields and they are happy that only leaves me worrying.
We currently live in Krabi and it is a little frustrating not to be there and stir things along so my question to those of you with the knowledge of Issan politics and mentality am I being over cautious or do I accept the way things are?
A bit of background is that her family has been there on their land for over a hundred years and the old lady's has been there longer, I await your advice..thanks.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:45 pm

Pjjpom wrote:I await your advice..thanks.

Don't touch it with a barge pole. If the old lady owned the land she would give you a chanote when you bought it. There are various types of chanotes and the fact that the village headman said not to worry about it means I would be really worried.
You need to go to the Land Department and find out just what sort of land it is.
Then you need the old lady to take her chanote to the land department and have her sign it over to your wife, or the portion of land she has given her.
My wife comes from Sara Buri and the relatives promised her land "no worries" if she wanted to build up there. The uncle is a retired Army Officer and he has a house on the land as well, so does another uncle, but none of them, except the "big House" has the chanote for all the land. If there is a falling out amongst the relatives then they can legally ask you to leave and then it's a court battle.
There have been many scams run against rich falangs, not that I'm suggesting this is, but I would tread very cautiously and demand the chanote.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby mikenot » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:28 pm

Ditto to RR's comment......if she has not got the chanote papers steer clear. As you probably know, there are all sorts of land titles here but the only one you should consider building on is land with the full chanote (nor sor 4 jor) complete with survey pegs.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:57 am

mikenot wrote:Ditto to RR's comment......if she has not got the chanote papers steer clear. As you probably know, there are all sorts of land titles here but the only one you should consider building on is land with the full chanote (nor sor 4 jor) complete with survey pegs.

Not quite. The Nor Sor Saam Gor title is also perfectly safe and has markers. The Nor Sor Saam Khor does not have markers but its boundaries are set by aerial survey. The Nor Sor Sam title does not have markers and you have to get the neighbours to agree the boundaries so not very good

There is only one land title that is called a Chanote that is the Nor Sor Si Jor. No other land titles are ever correctly called Chanote.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:13 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Not quite. The Nor Sor Saam Gor title is also perfectly safe and has markers.

Sometimewoodworker wrote:There is only one land title that is called a Chanote that is the Nor Sor Si Jor. No other land titles are ever correctly called Chanote.

Exactly what we said, you need a Chanote, which means the land is totally safe.
I posted on this before with all the types of land title deeds from the legal eagles and the only land that is "safe" is land that has a full chanote. The rest are all iffy and a previous member had your Nor Sor Si Jor ? (chanote 3) and before he died was in a legal battle over the land being a different size than claimed. Another member found all the Land Department boundary markers had been moved and what he was buying was actually less than stated.
So here's the old one and a new one.
http://www.thailandlawonline.com/articl ... n-thailand
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/t ... -deeds.php
Do not trust the old lady or the village headman. Your wife may be thrilled, but when the house is up she, (the old lady), can lay claim to it and the headman can just deny he said anything.
I have a faint feeling this land is actually agricultural and hasn't officially been classified as degraded as yet. If so the land is in limbo at the whim of officials at the Land Department.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:41 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Not quite. The Nor Sor Saam Gor title is also perfectly safe and has markers. The Nor Sor Saam Khor does not have markers but its boundaries are set by aerial survey. The Nor Sor Sam title does not have markers and you have to get the neighbours to agree the boundaries so not very good

I do wish people would read what they wrote before posting. And I do wish people would stop using "Thailish" and post the numbers in English, just like the legal eagles have done, saves the confusion. As in Nung, 1 in English, song, 2 in English. sam, 3 in English and si, 4 in English. Even the legal eagles will refer to them by their respective numbers.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:16 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:Not quite. The Nor Sor Saam Gor title is also perfectly safe and has markers.

Sometimewoodworker wrote:There is only one land title that is called a Chanote that is the Nor Sor Si Jor. No other land titles are ever correctly called Chanote.

Exactly what we said, you need a Chanote, which means the land is totally safe.
I posted on this before with all the types of land title deeds from the legal eagles and the only land that is "safe" is land that has a full chanote. The rest are all iffy and a previous member had your Nor Sor Si Jor ? (chanote 3) and before he died was in a legal battle over the land being a different size than claimed. Another member found all the Land Department boundary markers had been moved and what he was buying was actually less than stated.
So here's the old one and a new one.
http://www.thailandlawonline.com/articl ... n-thailand
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/t ... -deeds.php
Do not trust the old lady or the village headman. Your wife may be thrilled, but when the house is up she, (the old lady), can lay claim to it and the headman can just deny he said anything.
I have a faint feeling this land is actually agricultural and hasn't officially been classified as degraded as yet. If so the land is in limbo at the whim of officials at the Land Department.

As you say please do post correct information. There is no such thing as a Chanote 3
The only title that can be called a Chanote is the Nor Sor Si (4) Jor.
There are no land with a partial Chanote, it either has a Chanote and is Nor Sor Si (4) Jor or has a lower title and can not be called a Chanote.

Of course people can and do move marker posts for any land and then there will be legal cases. However if you have a Nor Sor Si (4) Jor or a Nor Sor Saam (3) Gor title then the boundary posts positions are recorded in the land office, this makes the legal position rather more clear.

There are 3 different Nor Sor Saam (3) titles with different levels of safety

The title that you can get very much depends on the area you are in, the Nor Sor Saam (3) titles can usually be upgraded to Sor Si (4) Jor after a new survey, though this depends on the local land office.

If you buy, or are given, land that is on a larger Chanote or Nor Sor Saam (3) Gor or Khor titles then you will need to get the land department to survey the land so the title papers can be issued. A land survey can take a couple of years to arrange, in some cases that time may be shortened, but with the current government in place you have to be extremely careful with any suggestion of a gift.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Pjjpom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:37 am

Thank-you Gentlemen for your replies which confirmed my doubts however my Wife is still not convinced . My answer to this problem will be to travel up there early next year and try to get some documentation from the land office and get it surveyed and registered.
The only worry is that I may be opening a can of worms with the fallout descending on my wife and her family so I will tread lightly.
Once again thanks....PJ
.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby mikenot » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:09 am

Pjjpom.....so what title does the land currently have ? I assume your wife DID ask ? The fact that the land has been in the old lady's family for over 100 years, and that it is apparently agricultural land, and apparently without the full land titles, suggests to me that it could possibly be one of the "right to use" titles that can only be inherited. Not saying that the old lady is crooked, maybe she really thinks she can do what she wants with the land ....... she would not be the first !
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby BKKBILL » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:51 pm

Here is more information from Thaivisa that may help explain the different Title Deeds here.

http://property.thaivisa.com/land-titles-in-thailand/
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:26 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote: but with the current government in place you have to be extremely careful with any suggestion of a gift.

I don't understand, what are you saying? Gifts are perfectly legal, in fact the new legislation hasn't even been drafted yet.
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Re: No paperwork for land

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:50 am

For those of you still interested in land, the building of a house thereon, and the inheritance taxes involved should you die, here is the latest on how far the bill has progressed: https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opi ... tax-reform
I don't think anyone of us should worry about a gift of land or with a house on it.
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