Building violation and boundary clearance

separate topics on:- measurement, puchasing, registration - Land filling, compacting and levelling - drainage and
anything else related to raw land!

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL

Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:13 pm

Dear CTH members, We've a problem with our neighbor on our land in South Thailand ( Tha Sala), for the record, it's NOT the CTH member, but a young expat Frenchman from Phuket, he bought the plot last year. I have a very good relationship with the previous owner, we kept contact during the period we both owned our land, about making plans (perimeter wall, sea wall Etc....) But my neighbor purchased a beautiful new plot in our area, and decided to sell this smaller one next to us, so the French farang bought it.
In December when we visited our land, we were shocked to see this new neighbor already had build a house, he had removed our fence (concrete pole with barbwire, temporary to keep the cows out), we had put it a few inches on our side). When we purchased the land, on this side, there was only 1 Cadastral Survey Marker (CSM) on street side, the one at beach side was disappeared because of erosion. That's why, the previous owner and me would ask for a new survey by landoffice before one of us started building the perimeter wall or other construction, to make sure before building something permanently. But there was never discussion about boundary because we had the front CSM.
This french guy never asked us anything, he refused our contact details when our previous neighbor offered this.
So he asked building permission at Obotor and started building, he build the foundation of his house on top of the CSM and just took a 90 degree angle to the beach, which is also not correct, visible on our and his chanote.
This means the front of the house (streetside) is on top of CSM, and the rest of this wall, for 100% sure on our land.
We went to Obotor and Landoffice, Obotor contacted him several times to arrange a meeting with us, because we were waiting for several weeks during our stay in Tha Sala, we even cancelled the rest of our trip in South Thailand. After a few phone calls Obotor insisted he came to Tha Sala to sort things out with us (because we were waiting), he said he would come in 10 days, but after 10 days Obotor called again; he said ; I don't come, to busy with business in Phuket) We were shocked by such impolite behavior, but they never showed up during our holiday. He is a very rude person, he treats local authorities (Obotor) like servants. Obotor told us personally, they never had met a farang like this before, they were affected by his behavior.
I measured the land with the presence of 2 people from Obotor, using the measurements from our chanote and we put temporary pegs at beach side, in anticipation of a new survey we ordered from Landoffice (end of year). I was informed yesterday by a local, that the french guy removed those temporary pegs, with the statement he can build on the boundary without any doubt and would finish the building, and sell after he finished! He also has a real estate business in Phuket.
I apologize for this long story :oops: , but it's not easy to explain in a few words, I really would appreciate your comments and advice. (We've never been in circumstances like this before)
Thank you
Rudi from Belgium

This is the building

Image
Image

Here you can see he put the foundation in the middle of CSM (from chanote) orange paint on top

Image

CSM burried in concreet foundation

Image

Temporary pegs at beachside

Image
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby BKKBILL » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:59 pm

One of the things would be to get the police involved with a complaint in writing then go to the land survey office and pay the extra fees to have a survey done quickly before all this see a lawyer. Sounds like this guy has done this before so I would think speed is of the essence here.
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
User avatar
BKKBILL
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 pm
Location: Mae Taeng, Chiang Mai

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:39 am

BKKBILL wrote:One of the things would be to get the police involved with a complaint in writing then go to the land survey office and pay the extra fees to have a survey done quickly before all this see a lawyer. Sounds like this guy has done this before so I would think speed is of the essence here.


Thx for the reply Bill
What do you mean with ''a survey done quickly before all this see a lawyer''.
We did ask for a survey, but what about a lawyer? We know Thai law says he has to stay minimum 2 meter from the boundary, landoffice already confirmed this, but he claims that's not true :? My Wife did file a complaint in police office December last year, but what happens next? Nobody does something, they only confirm we're right. The guy doesn't stop, finishes of the building and will try to sell. It appears he wants to split the land and sell the part with the building and build a holiday home for himself at the other side. What authority will stop him and what are the possible outcomes?
A very annoying situation, we find it very important to have a healthy relationship with our neighbors, in my home country and in Thailand, but this person has no empathy at all.
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:07 am

Rudi,
What Bill says is correct. Once you have a police report in your hands, go to the Land Office and file a formal complaint.
Now there are a number of things you need to do to get things moving, the police report needs to turn into a police investigation, which means you need to call the police onto your land, show them the chanote and the boundary markers.....but there's a way to get that survey done quickly....hire a survey company; they don't cost much (about 3,000 baht) from memory and then you can call the police... but I would be around to the Or Bor Tor's office with that survey report, the police report, and I would ask for a report from them.
You need a lawyer to file in court, for that you need the police report, a report from the Or Bor Tor (if they'll give you one) the survey result and all the photos you've taken. They will give you a case number and a hearing date. Just get the lawter to put it all down in writing because when the case finally does come to court you'll need all that documentation. The Frenchman might think twice when he gets a summons from the court, but this being Thailand, I bet he ignores it too, which will give the court a chance to rule in your favour.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby BKKBILL » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:01 am

Thanks RR you explained it much better than I could have.

Rudi,

Get everything documented and stamped it is the way here. You have to be aggressive not only will the Frenchman ignore you but all government departments will try to get out of putting anything in writing.

I think most land offices have a fast track service so you can jump the queue for a survey. Can't remember the cost but in this case speed is of the essence.
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
User avatar
BKKBILL
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 pm
Location: Mae Taeng, Chiang Mai

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Roger and Bill, Thanks a lot, your advice is very clear. We'll go after it and hope for the best. The survey is scheduled in December, because we can't go to Thailand more early. The written police report we have, Obotor said they have withdrawn his building permit. (But he neglect this) :D We'll ask Obotor to put this on paper for us.
So we have to get an attorney and ask the police on site when landoffice is performing the survey?

In the mean time, I hope he doesn't sell this land, because it would be very annoying for these buyers, because they would buy a lot of headache without knowing.

Rudi
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby BKKBILL » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:33 pm

One other thing if possible would be to have a notation put on his canote in the land office. This could put a hold on a sale if he tries to go that way. Talk to someone of authority or a lawyer about this.
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
User avatar
BKKBILL
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 pm
Location: Mae Taeng, Chiang Mai

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:52 pm

Rudi wrote:So we have to get an attorney and ask the police on site when landoffice is performing the survey?

The job of an attourney is to put it down in Thai so the judge understands what is happening. The lawyer also compiles all the evidence, files all the documents at the local court and it has to be the right court, because it may go from a civil court to a administrative court, to a criminal court depending on the evidence, the judge and what your opponent (the Frenchman) says in court. And by the time you get there the Frenchman may have built, sold snd done a flyer. Make sure the Land Office is aware you are in dispute, they will block all sales of the ajoining block that way. I would have told them the survey was urgent and the reasons why, with the photos, so that it was recorded on the Frenchman's chanote that the land could not be sold whilst in dispute with you.
If you are out of the country you need a lawyer to do it for you, he'll be your voice in the country whilst you are away and he may be able to move things along (the survey by the Land Office), the courts filing the case, the documentary evidence needed and if you get a black case number you'll need him in court. Thai lawyers are not expensive. For a few thousand baht they'll have all that done in a day or so.....let me add that Thai lawyers for farangs are sometimes expensive but as this involves the Or Bor Tor and a dispute over land that a Frenchman stole, in a country location, you won't need a very bright English speaking lawyer that charges by the hour, just a normal Thai country lawyer should do.
Rudi wrote:So we have to get an attorney and ask the police on site when landoffice is performing the survey?

Rudi, you get an attorney and he does all the formalities, visits the authorities and gets the statements you have missed and then takes the whole package to court, presents it to a Judge, who will then schedule a hearing (Black Case No. ......) and the court will then notify the Frenchman. Be warned, it is a long slow process even with a case number, but the Land Office will record that case number on the back of both chanotes involved and stop any hanky panky by the Frenchman so he can't sell the land.
Rudi wrote:In the mean time, I hope he doesn't sell this land, because it would be very annoying for these buyers, because they would buy a lot of headache without knowing.

This is what you will be stopping if your lawyer files the paperwork properly.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:20 pm

I talked with my wife about this advice you both give, and we decided to take this route, it seems very obvious. :D At one moment in the beginning of this year, we thought it was maybe better not to care and leave it this way. But we couldn't, because we believe when people act like this, for sure they'll do something similar again in the near future, and that's unacceptable in our point of view. Thanks again for showing us a possible solution. :D
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Nakhonsri » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:57 pm

That is one ugly piece of construction, to boot. It would be better if you can get the whole thing removed. I know exactly the location you refer to. I have seen this site in stormy weather and you will need to consider carefully how you yourself build.
I hope you can resolve the difficulties with your neighbor - he seems to be an unsavory type and the kind that you would be better off without. Good luck.
Nakhonsri
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:20 pm

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:35 pm

Hi Nakhonsri, thanks for the support.
You hit the nail right on the head, it's not only build much to close over boundary (building violation), but like you said, it' s also a very ugly building. That's why my wife often said, ''Why, why this happens to us, so ugly, and over our boundary''. :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are correct about stormy weather and this location, that's why we'll build exactly the same seawall like our other neighbor.
I know you own a plot very close to us, I'm curious, must be very close to Rocky and Warren? :)

Image
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby thailazer » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:02 am

Rudi.... That sure is a raw situation and you are getting good advice on this thread. Definitely get an attorney involved right away as if you wait until December, who knows what will be established. It is quite unreal to see a crew build right on top of a CSM. An attorney can keep things moving in the right direction while you are not available, and paying for an immediate survey will establish good cause to go after that guy. Best of luck and keep your chin up.
thailazer
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:55 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Mike Judd » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:36 am

It looks like unfortunately you are the one who has to do all the sorting out of boundaries etc; paying all the fees and legal bills while he just ignores it all. I don't know how things work in Thailand, even though you seem to have the law on your side, unless there are penalties and fines applicable for what he has done, all he might have to do ,is cut his building back to the required distance when ordered to after you have had all the frustration and agro ,never mind the expense.! Plus still have an ugly building which looks like a letting design to me. No one would build a house like that surely.?
Mike Judd
 
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:31 am
Location: Church Point Sydney N.S.W. Australia. Khon Kaen

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Rudi » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:31 pm

Thanks again for all the support and advice. Indeed Mike, it's us having the worries and frustrations, he doesn't care anything. To give an example, Obotor told us (as you can see on picture) he buried his septic tanks in front of the building on government property, Obotor checked the building site and ordered to remove these and put them on his own land, he made such a big fight about, this didn't want to move them, he told them:'' ridiculous law, nobody cares, nobody will see septic tanks, because buried Etc......I don't move them'' :evil:
The area we have our land is very nice we believe, all nice farang who bought these beachfront plots to settle down and retire, they've build or are building their nice houses in the middle of their land, They all made agreements with their neighbor about perimeter walls Etc......., everything with mutual respect, the small farang community is great, only this 31 year old guy acts like this. His initial plan was to start up some business in that building, with beauty-salon, some kind of cafe, jetski's Etc....., and planned 8 bungalows (the plots is 850 SqM :mrgreen: ) you have to know, this area is close to a quiet Muslim village, the farangs living there, choose this location for a relaxed, little bit remote life, and then this individual shows up, acting like this is Phuket. :cry:
Rudi
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Building violation and boundary clearance

Postby Nakhonsri » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:55 pm

Hi Rudi.
My plot is a little further North on the "main" road. Coming from Walk-In Beach etc it is right where the road bends to the right. It is full of pine trees planted by the previous owner, a little over three rai. I have not had a chance to meet the locals. I have put development plans on hold while I renovate a house in Ban Krut (also a delightful location), half way between BKK and Tha Sala. A sort of halfway house !!
Once again, I hope that you can get your neighbor sorted out so that you can live in peace there. Not sure when I will return there; I made my last visit a couple of months back. I noticed that one of the pine saplings is now about 20-25 mtrs high !
Regards
Nakhonsri
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:20 pm

Next

Return to land

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest