Surveying land

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Surveying land

Postby Chips » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:50 pm

I have been looking at buying a piece of land next to a small canal. The land is part of a larger piece that the owner has agreed to divide up and sell part of.

I got the owner to come out and show me where he thought the edge of the land we want ends, but it seems much smaller than my estimations were.

In Australia the canal would be public land and his land would start maybe a meter back from it. Does anyone know if this is similar in Thailand?

I will have to get a surveyor to give us exact measurements. Would this be done through the Land Office, and does anyone know how much this would likely cost?

-Rahn
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Re: Surveying land

Postby fredlk » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:53 pm

Chips wrote:I will have to get a surveyor to give us exact measurements. Would this be done through the Land Office

They are the only ones who know the full details of each piece of land.
Chips wrote:does anyone know how much this would likely cost?

Everytime I've had them come out to measure the price has been 3,000 Baht.
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Re: Surveying land

Postby MGV12 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:26 pm

fredlk wrote:
Chips wrote:does anyone know how much this would likely cost?

Everytime I've had them come out to measure the price has been 3,000 Baht.


Maybe it varies around the country ... we paid 1760 Baht in Chiang Mai area two years ago.

Mind you that's about in line with [the real] Thai inflation rate I guess :roll:

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Re: Surveying land

Postby geoffinissan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:20 pm

You should get permission from the land owner for you to go to the Land office and check details, take a friend with you and ask gently about the land. Very important to check where the boundaries are. We bought last year and had to dig to find the concrete pins which mark each corner, I had these verified by Land office and then put them in concrete. And still have one neighbor complain he thought his land was larger and asks did we move his pin.

You need lots of patience and take a lot of photos when the tape measure is out.

Before you finally buy, it is common to invite all the people who own land next to yours, to come and inspect where the pins are. Again, you need lots of patience. We had them out twice and 3,000 THB each visit is about right.

Good luck
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Re: Surveying land

Postby pipoz » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:48 am

Chips wrote:I have been looking at buying a piece of land next to a small canal. The land is part of a larger piece that the owner has agreed to divide up and sell part of.

I will have to get a surveyor to give us exact measurements. Would this be done through the Land Office, and does anyone know how much this would likely cost?

-Rahn


I also paid around TB 3000, some 18 months back when I got the Surveyor from the Udon Thani land Office out, to verify the Chonote corner points on the land

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Re: Surveying land

Postby chaiyapoon » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:55 am

Just buying a piece of land 8 rai in Prachinburi. Had land office out to survey as some doubt to boundaries due to all the concrete markers now buried.Sorted with them and neighbour cost 3000b they will come out again in 3 months after purchase to finalise and set the new markers but have stated will be at least 8 rai.I believe the fee for that is 4000b
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Re: Surveying land - Lak Chanotes...

Postby Destruction Del » Mon May 05, 2014 12:46 pm

G'day Gents,
Just joined, read a handful of threads as I have a bit of a predicament...

My Mrs & I have been looking at a piece of land in her hometown recently...

The owner says "It's over 27 Rai if you measure the actual land"
Looking at the Chanote which was "faxed" to us, which was also annoying because I threw my pre-war machine away about 5 years ago after it'd been used as a bookend for years due to the lack of use since emails became popular! which is only about 10-15 years ago!!... I mean honestly Who uses a fax these days?? but nice to know she don't have email = no computer = not a clue :) Sorted :D


Here's the weird thing.
The Chanote states 23.2 Rai on the back?
On the front it says it's 4,000:1 scale line drawing?
I measured the drawing at a scale of 4,000:1 and it worked out to be +- 23 Rai...
Wondering why she said 27 Rai I went there armed with a 50m tape measure recently during our Songkran visit.

After finding 4 of the 9 Lak Chanotes and not being able to make sense of anything that was stamped into the cement on top of it, I wrote down my confusing (but pleasing?) measurements & we started to work it all out...
Being a smartarse I used a scale ruler! :lol: Within a minute we realised it has to be 5,000:1 scale! Not 4,000:1 as stated on the front of the Chanote.

After a revisit & double check the next day we verified the scale mistake and also found another 3 Lak Chanotes where they should be as stated on the scale drawing.

Obviously someone in the land office typed this one up on a late Friday afternoon or First thing Monday...

I've taken into consideration the fact that I wasn't "smack bang in the middle" of the Lak Chanote or making EXACT scale measurements on the drawing as 1mm = 5M, So I thought that's good enough for now.

It's shape is rectangle but not an equal one, DOES ANYONE have a good polygon calculator PLEASE? Mac OS preferred but I will blow the dust off the PC and see if it'll boot up if I have to use a .exe... all the web based one's I find online are for equal sides only... This land has SIX sides and none of them are the same length.
(I must have been locked in the naughty room the day the mathematics teacher taught polygons...?)

It has 4 main sides but it's got a little extra bit 17M ish x 17M ish at the front corner hence the extra 2 sides, but I still want that bit for a main entrance and U-Turn area for the dustbin truck & of course Police truck to U-Turn when they come to see what delights their red box has this month.

Recently I managed to get around the area size and calculate it exactly using a google screenshot and importing the image as a floor plan trace image to Punch! Home Design Studio (Awesome program) and got 45,150 M2... = 28.2 Rai
Hmmm... She ain't so "not clued up" after all Del... Bugger :( :roll:

Like I said, It's not exactly a rectangle but to give you an idea I've averaged the length & width and come up with 222 x 196M = 43,512 M2 = 27.2 Rai


That explains the land measurement situation which I don't see as a big deal really.
I was wanting 10 Rai initially, but after measuring off 10 Rai, (I obviously had to take the full length N-S from the road to the back of the land which would be 218M on that side and from one side E-W to a measured Westerly distance totalling 10 Rai), I chose the Eastern side of the plot because of the lack of neighbours on that side and the old hag on the Western side is a right miserable old bag! :evil: :twisted: Wouldn't even help me to locate the Lak Chanote that marks the separation... I think we all know why she's not not happy about someone buying that land next to her and the land surveyors will be out later this year... I bet the Lak ain't where it should be...

After seeing what we'll get with 10 Rai on the google earth shot, We decided wanted also this tree and that lovely tree that are just outside of our proposed boundary line... I thought ahh what the hell, let's get 15 Rai and have all them trees also!
So we've decided on 15 Rai and therefore the land needs to be divided up and new Lak Chanotes placed etc...

Our predicament is that the Chanote has a long term bank loan on it from about 20 years ago, it's almost paid of (Just 400,000 or 500,000 to pay off now) and she obviously needs X amount (of my money) to pay the bank off and get the Chanote out of the bank.

So, My questions are:
1: Will the land office surveyors still come out and do their confirmation measurements if the Chanote has money borrowed on it and tied to the bank?

2: Will they separate/divide the land in this situation?

3: I haven't been to the land office there yet because it was closed during Songkran, but can we go to there and get a copy of the Chanote? Like a photocopy?
The land owner lives in Udon Thani and the land is in Muk Dahan.

4: What would be the score regarding the old hag possibly moving the Lak Chanote?
If the surveyors discover that a Lak has been moved to make her land bigger and she's already built a house and set a huge concrete drive... She'll lose face obviously but will the surveyors and land office re-claim it for us or just make her buy the bit she's stolen? At faring price of course! :lol:




A lot of details and babbling for just a few questions I know Gents, but I just want to start the ball rolling because I've got a whole lot of building related questions to come now after designing my 'Englishman's Castle on Punch!
I then started running around this (Built by a Swede) house I'm renting now with a tape measure and I'm really concerned regarding these columns and support beams...
I may have to totally re-start from fresh taking into consideration the building technique they have here...

Anyway, I won't start a batch of building questions on a Land thread.


Thank in advance for any helpful information, direction or advice anyone can give me.


Kind Regards,

Del.
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Re: Surveying land - Lak Chanotes...

Postby fredlk » Mon May 05, 2014 1:37 pm

What a story, you're quite the writer. :D Welcome.

I'm no expert on land issues, but will give my thoughts.
Destruction Del wrote:1: Will the land office surveyors still come out and do their confirmation measurements if the Chanote has money borrowed on it and tied to the bank?

I think so. The survey is usually requested by the owner / holder of the chanote.
Destruction Del wrote:2: Will they separate/divide the land in this situation?

I don't think any action will be taken or can be done on a mortgaged chanote. It has to be free of debt and in the possession of the owner.
Destruction Del wrote:3: I haven't been to the land office there yet because it was closed during Songkran, but can we go to there and get a copy of the Chanote? Like a photocopy?

I think they will have copies of everything or at least their own version of the land measurements.
Destruction Del wrote:4: What would be the score regarding the old hag possibly moving the Lak Chanote?
If the surveyors discover that a Lak has been moved to make her land bigger and she's already built a house and set a huge concrete drive... She'll lose face obviously but will the surveyors and land office re-claim it for us or just make her buy the bit she's stolen? At faring price of course!

My feeling is that if it's been moved some metres nobody will notice and the present position will become the surveyed position. If you contest the position then they will also measure surrounding plots. If she's stolen it then that's the owner's problem, not the Land Office's and you'll have to go to court.

A tip. Don't part with your money until you have the chanote in your possession. The chanote is proof of ownership and having no chanote means you own no land. It has to be free of mortgage before you conclude the deal.
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Re: Surveying land

Postby Destruction Del » Mon May 05, 2014 5:02 pm

Thanks Fred,
Your answers are much appreciated.

The land owner wants us to trust her and vice versa needless to say...

I said over the phone that I "could" front the money to get the papers out on the condition that we draw up a contract to guarantee no foul play by either party, I'll get a lawyer to sort this.

Or am I P'ing against the wind there?



May the Pork be with you
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Re: Surveying land

Postby MGV12 » Mon May 05, 2014 5:20 pm

Destruction Del wrote:Thanks Fred,
Your answers are much appreciated.

The land owner wants us to trust her and vice versa needless to say...

I said over the phone that I "could" front the money to get the papers out on the condition that we draw up a contract to guarantee no foul play by either party, I'll get a lawyer to sort this.

Or am I P'ing against the wind there?



May the Pork be with you


Possibly or probably ... depends almost entirely on the lawyer who acts [or claims to act] for you. There are some who are worthy of the position ... finding them can be the problem as recommendations don't mean much here. 'Contracts' and 'guarantees' take on a new meaning when it comes to land issues ... it can be a minefield so tread with great care.

In Thailand the "Rule of Thumb' is never, never, never, ever pay money 'up front'.

“Some days I am an optimistic pessimist ... other days I am a pessimistic optimist”
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Re: Surveying land

Postby fredlk » Mon May 05, 2014 5:47 pm

MGV12 wrote: it can be a minefield so tread with great care.

I second that.
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Re: Surveying land

Postby Destruction Del » Mon May 05, 2014 10:36 pm

Cheers
I've dealt with a lawyer before and not had a problem, but he happened to be SCB manageress' brother which was pricey but worth it.

Shame I lost their numbers really.

But I certainly know about the trusty lawyer issue here,
Like rocking horse manure...


Anyway, the longer the loan takes for her to pay off the longer I got to go to work and save more money, I really want to have enough behind me to buy the land, build the house and be off work long enough to oversee everything that's going on... I don't know how some guys I know offshore have coped with having a house being built while they've been offshore! Pacing up n down the deck like mad men! F that!

Plus reading threads about guys regretting not spending enough time on site and getting blamed for the mistakes coz they weren't there concerns me... Amazing Thailand ;)


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Re: Surveying land

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Tue May 06, 2014 8:40 am

Destruction Del wrote:Thanks Fred,
Your answers are much appreciated.

The land owner wants us to trust her and vice versa needless to say...

I said over the phone that I "could" front the money to get the papers out on the condition that we draw up a contract to guarantee no foul play by either party, I'll get a lawyer to sort this.

Or am I P'ing against the wind there?



May the Pork be with you

If the land owner wants to sell then you SHOULD NOT put up the money. As you say it's almost paid off she will easly be able to borrow the money to get the title back to split the chanote. When we bought that is what the owner did (twice).

SWIMBO's explanation to the land owner that I did trust her as I wouldn't be buying part of her field if I didn't BUT would not give any money without a chanote as I was a Falang was accepted by all.

Getting lawyers involved to write contracts has little point apart from costing you money. It gives no real protection. If you want something that carries weight then get the village headman and local elders involved using a preprinted contract, it will be cheaper and more effective than an unknown lawyers contract. We did that the second time we bought as we did pay part of the sale price before doing the land transfer with the balance paid at the land office when we got the chanote.

No lawyers are needed for the deal just you, her, the chanote and the land office with those you have the land, no problem, no lawyer. You will also agree to pay her, her price and declare a much lower price in the land office to reduce the tax to pay.

You will also need to agree who pays the tax and land office fee.

We split the costs between us and the seller when we bought.
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Re: Surveying land

Postby MGV12 » Tue May 06, 2014 1:47 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:If you want something that carries weight then get the village headman and local elders involved using a preprinted contract, it will be cheaper and more effective than an unknown lawyers contract.


Agree ... there are and always will be exceptions but its a route few take and all should at least investigate before engaging a 'lawyer'.

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Re: Surveying land

Postby vanda » Tue May 06, 2014 2:51 pm

Thankfully we're having a surveyor come out to measure up the land, something i've been trying to get the missus to do for a while, and was all brought about from the evil Aunty next door trying to steal our land. It will cost 2800 b which is divided between the missus and the evil Aunty, so 1400 b each. The Aunty wanted it done straight away and was told by the surveyor to pay up or shut up, was told to pay an extra 10,000 b and he'd come out the next day, but that was to only be paid by her... she shut up :-)
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