Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

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Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby oldmajor » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:03 pm

Hello all. I would like to mention that I am a complete newb to landfill and house construction. Please go easy on me if I ask some stoooopid questions. (there will be many :D )
I have a 5 rai plot of land but intend to only fill 2 rai. Fill will be approx. 1.5 metres. The 2 rai to be filled will be a driveway from the road to the middle of the plot, the rest of the fill be for the house, carport and workshop. Will I need to build around the filled land to ensure that it stays there and settles for a year or is it safe to leave it unattended?
Thanks
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby geordie » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:12 pm

you will get erosion usually it will erode to an angle of 45% so if you were to create an embankment of 45% you could expect it to stay fairly intact Have you considered a conventional thai style build ? put the house on stilts keeping a crawlspace under it you could then start imediatly on the build and add the fill as needed
it will need some sort of retaining wall because of the depth of fill but keeping a void under the house will save a few truckloads ?
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby pipoz » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:45 pm

oldmajor wrote:Hello all. I would like to mention that I am a complete newb to landfill and house construction. Please go easy on me if I ask some stoooopid questions. (there will be many :D )
I have a 5 rai plot of land but intend to only fill 2 rai. Fill will be approx. 1.5 metres. The 2 rai to be filled will be a driveway from the road to the middle of the plot, the rest of the fill be for the house, carport and workshop. Will I need to build around the filled land to ensure that it stays there and settles for a year or is it safe to leave it unattended?
Thanks


Depending on where your land is and how lucky you are at the time with someone having fill available, that may cost you a lot. Transport from the exavation to you property can be part of the cost factor.

There are three Grades of fill as I understand it,a nd for general fill of 500mm deep, I bought Grade 2, which really turned out to be part way between Grade 2 and 3 (i.e. had a lot of clay in it, but no vegetation and came from a new dam/pond). It did eventually self compact/settle down ok, after one wet season, now 9 months)

I have two Rai near Udon Thani, and decided just to fill or raise up the one Rai, by 500 mm with Quality 3. As I said, the fill came from a new pond they were excavating only 1 km away from my land, so the cost component of transport in the total price was not a real factor. My fill material was a mostly grey-red colour, from a depth of between 3-5 meters down under what was an old rice field. It was virgin/original excavated clay material, and not overly saturated/wet.

My cost to fill one Rai by 500mm (for which I needed the equivalent of 800 m3 of bulk fill) was TB 65,000, all up, which works out to be TB 81 per m3 of bulk fill (although they sell it by the truck load, so need to convert). This price of TB 65,000 included supply, transport, placement and pushing into position by a tractor.

The natural compaction came later after one wet season and with a few vehicles running over the top of it. The end result is that what started out as 500mm of fill height on day one, is now about 400 mm after one wet season, so be prepared to lose 15- 20% of the height over time, unless of course you are going to compact your fill properly in layers of 300-400mm at a time, with a proper Roller. Its not a good idea to dump 1500mm of bulk clay type fill in one hit, push it around flat and expect it to propely settle/self compact under its own weight, if you then intend to build on it, unless you intend to wait a long 5 years.

If you are looking to fill 2 Rai x 1500mm, then you are potentially looking at 4,800m3 of bulk fill, plus say another 15-20% as and when you compact it down, as for sure it will settle over time unless compacted it in layers. Then you will have a dip in your driveway.

They sell by the fill by the truck load (sometimes a 6 wheel truck and other times a 10 wheel truck. In your case with your volume, I suspect it will all be delivered by a big truck (a 10 Wheeled Truck) which arguably carries between 9-10 m3 of bulk fill per Truck. Let’s say 9.5 m3 bulk per truck, so you will need 4800/9.5 = 505 truck loads, plus that 15-20% I mentioned.

My guess is that the current price of Grade 2-3 fill is about,TB 90 per m3 (say TB 800-900 per 10 Wheeled Truck), because it is getting harder to find good clean fill, in large quantities. Timing is everything,

So

4,800m3 of Grade 2-3 bulk fill x TB 90 = TB 432,000 (plus the 15-20%)
4,800m3 of Grade 2-3 bulk fill / 9.5 m3 per Ten Wheel Trucks = 505 Large Truck loads (plus the 15-20%)

Regards
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby oldmajor » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:44 pm

geordie wrote:you will get erosion usually it will erode to an angle of 45% so if you were to create an embankment of 45% you could expect it to stay fairly intact Have you considered a conventional thai style build ? put the house on stilts keeping a crawlspace under it you could then start imediatly on the build and add the fill as needed
it will need some sort of retaining wall because of the depth of fill but keeping a void under the house will save a few truckloads ?


Thanks Geordie.
I haven't completely ruled out a thai style house although leaning towards a more conventional 2 storey place. I don't have any plans yet although we have almost reached a decision on requirements. It is certainly going to be a steep learning curve but I feel as though we should be in fairly good stead in one years time.
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby oldmajor » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:56 pm

pipoz wrote:
oldmajor wrote:Hello all. I would like to mention that I am a complete newb to landfill and house construction. Please go easy on me if I ask some stoooopid questions. (there will be many :D )
I have a 5 rai plot of land but intend to only fill 2 rai. Fill will be approx. 1.5 metres. The 2 rai to be filled will be a driveway from the road to the middle of the plot, the rest of the fill be for the house, carport and workshop. Will I need to build around the filled land to ensure that it stays there and settles for a year or is it safe to leave it unattended?
Thanks


Depending on where your land is and how lucky you are at the time with someone having fill available, that may cost you a lot. Transport from the exavation to you property can be part of the cost factor.

There are three Grades of fill as I understand it,a nd for general fill of 500mm deep, I bought Grade 2, which really turned out to be part way between Grade 2 and 3 (i.e. had a lot of clay in it, but no vegetation and came from a new dam/pond). It did eventually self compact/settle down ok, after one wet season, now 9 months)

I have two Rai near Udon Thani, and decided just to fill or raise up the one Rai, by 500 mm with Quality 3. As I said, the fill came from a new pond they were excavating only 1 km away from my land, so the cost component of transport in the total price was not a real factor. My fill material was a mostly grey-red colour, from a depth of between 3-5 meters down under what was an old rice field. It was virgin/original excavated clay material, and not overly saturated/wet.

My cost to fill one Rai by 500mm (for which I needed the equivalent of 800 m3 of bulk fill) was TB 65,000, all up, which works out to be TB 81 per m3 of bulk fill (although they sell it by the truck load, so need to convert). This price of TB 65,000 included supply, transport, placement and pushing into position by a tractor.

The natural compaction came later after one wet season and with a few vehicles running over the top of it. The end result is that what started out as 500mm of fill height on day one, is now about 400 mm after one wet season, so be prepared to lose 15- 20% of the height over time, unless of course you are going to compact your fill properly in layers of 300-400mm at a time, with a proper Roller. Its not a good idea to dump 1500mm of bulk clay type fill in one hit, push it around flat and expect it to propely settle/self compact under its own weight, if you then intend to build on it, unless you intend to wait a long 5 years.

If you are looking to fill 2 Rai x 1500mm, then you are potentially looking at 4,800m3 of bulk fill, plus say another 15-20% as and when you compact it down, as for sure it will settle over time unless compacted it in layers. Then you will have a dip in your driveway.

They sell by the fill by the truck load (sometimes a 6 wheel truck and other times a 10 wheel truck. In your case with your volume, I suspect it will all be delivered by a big truck (a 10 Wheeled Truck) which arguably carries between 9-10 m3 of bulk fill per Truck. Let’s say 9.5 m3 bulk per truck, so you will need 4800/9.5 = 505 truck loads, plus that 15-20% I mentioned.

My guess is that the current price of Grade 2-3 fill is about,TB 90 per m3 (say TB 800-900 per 10 Wheeled Truck), because it is getting harder to find good clean fill, in large quantities. Timing is everything,

So

4,800m3 of Grade 2-3 bulk fill x TB 90 = TB 432,000 (plus the 15-20%)
4,800m3 of Grade 2-3 bulk fill / 9.5 m3 per Ten Wheel Trucks = 505 Large Truck loads (plus the 15-20%)

Regards


Thanks Pipoz,
Some excellent information.
If I roll every 400mm until I reach the required 1500mm, (or possibly 1800mm if losing 20% through compaction) do I need to leave the fill at all before I add a further 400mm?
Once I reach the desired fill height through rolling every 400mm, do you suggest leaving for a year or would it be ready for building?
What would the difference be in the various grades of soil? Is grade 1 top soil? Does this make a big difference in compaction?
My apologies for so many questions.
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby Maseratimartin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:10 pm

I left the land for resting 1 year and then still ensured the footings touch the natural grown ground....play safe!

I did something similar to your plan but smaler in size.

I filled only where I needed it for the build and the rest stays as it is.
This way I have a huge buffer before any water could affect the builds.

Our future terrasse with a retaining wall covers a part of the step filled to natuaral land.
Then the pool- house and alfresco build was used for another elevation cover...
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby pipoz » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi Oldmajor,

Before I try to answer your some of your questions, the issue with heavy clay soils is that clay soil type can move (react to moisture conditions) if they dry out or get saturated. The amount of actual movement /potential movement, is also related to the type of clay soils. Its always best to get a stable type of fill material to build on, if you can find one, but these are often more expensive.

Compacting the clay properly in layers (as I suggested) just reduces the amount of long term settlement to a minimum, after that compaction. It may continue to drop a bit afterward over time, but not by much. But compacting it properly in layers, the 15-20% loss/drop in level over time, doesn’t happen.The other factor is that there are different types of clays and some clays react more than others, meaning that they tend to move more if they get saturated, i.e. if the area is flooded or if they are under constant heavy rain. Then the clay soils can swell. It’s the shrinking and swelling differential (movement) that can eventually crack foundations/slabs.

Really you need to find out what type of fill material you can get a hold of and how stable it is. If you end up buying a heavy clay fill material that is a highly reactive clay type (because it is cheap), then you simply by a long term problem and it will cost you much more when you do your foundation design. Cheap fill is not necessarily good value - spend a few dollars and have it tested, before you buy it.

I will tell you what I intend to do, however I only have to deal with a 400mm of fill, which I had tested (and it is low reactive), whereas you intend to sit your house on 1500 mm of built up fill, which is a totaly different exercise. Your problem is that your house slab is potentially sitting some 1500mm above you original ground level, assuming that too is original/undisturbed.

I simply intend to dig through my 400mm of fill, then down another 600mm into the original undisturbed base material (which by the way is also a light clay base, but undisturbed) and found my pad footing at that level (so my pad footing is 1000mm deep overall). I will then tie my foundation beams into my pads founding my tie beams 200mm down into my fill level, and ultimately sit my slab on my beams. I will design my floor slab as a suspended slab so it doesn’t sit on the fill.

I will send you a PM with my foundation-slab details, once I finished them, however you will need to discuss it with a Thai local Civil Engineer/Authority as you have a much deeper fill than me. You will need to look at your existing site soil condition and the type of fill material that you ultimately use.

Regards
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby Mike Judd » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:33 am

I was lucky in the fact that I only got over to my land once or twice per year, so when filled with 2,000 small truck loads at the same cost of the 4.5 rai land B450.000 ,it had at least 3-4 yrs to settle. I filled it all to the highway level about a metre up to a metre and a half at the road itself with the normal large concrete pipe under to continue the drainage. Then I put more in at the house site and let it settle for a year. The main problem seems to be your neighbours, mine keeps trying to make sure everything he builds including driveways is higher so that any water ends up on my land, to eventually drain onto the next block which is still a paddy field. The thing to remember is with Thai building methods , all the loads from the roof down, end up on the column bases, so they need to be strong enough to take what ever loads necessary, especially with a two storey house.
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby geordie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:18 pm

On a 1.5 mtr fill i would definately have to dig down to terra firma original ground and then some for footings even after 5 years i would not trust it to have settled enough to build unless i was intending to build on a raft foundation
A question silly as it seems but must be asked why do you need 1.5 mtrs of fill ? is the land liable to flooding ? could you with a bit of relocation add a lake to the property and have a nice fish farm as well as a lot of free fill :mrgreen:
In your case a two story house will in fact be three story if you start at original ground/footings - raise your colums fill between or keep as a crawlspace then groundbeams and start on the build proper
I cannot do not understand this obbsesion of raising a vast area of land to retain an island in the middle of a lake ?? surely enough to protect the property should be raised and accept that access may be by boat ? looking around here at the scale of last years flooding (Rangsit) having 50 sq meters and a dry house would be enough as the flooding went for miles anyway ? making travel pretty difficult to say the least
Sitting in the UK watching the "few news reports they gave"" did not give any idea whatsoever as to the scale of things on the ground as it were sitting here this year with full klongs full feilds added a new light to it altogether
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby Mike Judd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:04 am

As I said Geordie, it was over several years and I left it to my loverly partner,she initially had fill put in from the road right in to the back as a drive way. All of the land around had been or still was rice fields ,but one by one filled in for Service Stations , various building materials yards and a couple of motels as it's the main Highway to Marasarakhan from Khon kaen. Like most main roads it was built up with about 1.5mt ditches on either side and everyone who has built, whether a house or what ever has put in the large pipe and filled in level to the road. So we just did the same and kept it the same level as my Danish neighbour who built first. The fill was mainly a sandy clay that goes as hard as concrete when dry, hence the Kango hammer to make it a bit easier for my guy to dig out foundations, after rain it's easier but not sticky like some clays. With the 60-70 trees that I put in around the perimeter over the years before actually starting my build, I had to dig a hole and put plenty of Cow Poo in for it to have a chance to grow.
If you have a look at my build you will see the land filled, then the front wall built first, next year the garage, and a couple of years later starting on the house. That was built up with another 2ft of fill 3 years ago with the foundations going down to the original fill. All in all I don't expect any problems as the column pads were on bloody hard ground with plenty of steel in the right places and I intend keeping all the roof water well away from the house base. Had enough of my Partners old house in the village cracking up with all the roof water soaking into the foundations with no gutters.
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby Mike Judd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:26 am

DSCN4591.JPG
7 years ago planting.
Just a couple of photos to show my land fill of 2,000 loads. 7yrs ago and last July when I was last over.
Attachments
P1010855.JPG
July 2012
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby geordie » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:32 am

Mike when i was 20=21 i was digging a footing for an extension down an alley so no room for a machine i was doing a metre spit normal for the day 1 meter + the depth of the spade
The dig was clay stiff but not iron and it went well at the back of the house and even down the alley but down the ally a couple of times the trench hit soft ?? nothing too worrying untill i had a delivery of ballast
i was out of the hole guiding him to tip 5-6 meters away which he did no problem then i turned around and looked at what used to be a nice clean cut trench it had caved the full length of the alley ?? The culprit was a 24" sewer running parallell but deeper i had been digging along the line of the original trench but a couple of inches off That pipe had been installed with the houses sixty years previous the compaction had just not happened ? I was happy i had a delivery or i would have been down there ??I have never trusted made up ground since ? Somewhere i have pictures of an extension built about four years ago for a mate his house is on a dried up river bed ! How do i know :lol: i dug straight through it going down about three foot under his lawn/house it was comical pure clay then a half moon shape of rocks stone and silt which in turn was filled with earth it was too distinctive to miss it We went ahead with the extension = mass concrete foundations because of the water issues i felt sure to follow so 2ft wide and a meter deep concrete pumped in for footings - no problems with his house but he now gets flooding in his road regularly after heavy rain :lol: :lol: :lol: the river bed which we built across is still active in winter ? his lawn has now a water table of ground level = 1/2"I am convinced I caused both problems by not being aware of the full effects or concerned enough to care I just do not see a necesity to do a mass fill ? of several Rai pushing further problems on your neighbours surely if you are in the middle of a flood zone you should be satisfied that your property is high and dry or mor sensibly buy land that is elevated naturally displcing several rai or water has to reflect on someone down the road As for settlement i have had my warning even at 4" 100mm then whacker plated down i would still choose to dig through it no question evn if it was a couple of test holes :mrgreen:
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby oldmajor » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:10 pm

pipoz wrote:Hi Oldmajor,



Really you need to find out what type of fill material you can get a hold of and how stable it is. If you end up buying a heavy clay fill material that is a highly reactive clay type (because it is cheap), then you simply by a long term problem and it will cost you much more when you do your foundation design. Cheap fill is not necessarily good value - spend a few dollars and have it tested, before you buy it.

I will tell you what I intend to do, however I only have to deal with a 400mm of fill, which I had tested (and it is low reactive), whereas you intend to sit your house on 1500 mm of built up fill, which is a totaly different exercise. Your problem is that your house slab is potentially sitting some 1500mm above you original ground level, assuming that too is original/undisturbed.

I simply intend to dig through my 400mm of fill, then down another 600mm into the original undisturbed base material (which by the way is also a light clay base, but undisturbed) and found my pad footing at that level (so my pad footing is 1000mm deep overall). I will then tie my foundation beams into my pads founding my tie beams 200mm down into my fill level, and ultimately sit my slab on my beams. I will design my floor slab as a suspended slab so it doesn’t sit on the fill.

I will send you a PM with my foundation-slab details, once I finished them, however you will need to discuss it with a Thai local Civil Engineer/Authority as you have a much deeper fill than me. You will need to look at your existing site soil condition and the type of fill material that you ultimately use.

Regards


Thanks a lot Pipoz.

I will be up visiting our land in about 2 weeks time. I will take samples of the original soil, get some history on the land and check that this is undisturbed. I hope to be able to visit the area where the fill will be coming from and will take samples of this also.

Let me check if I understand this.......you will design your slab to sit on your beams, so effectively, the fill is just that......fill. no amount of swelling or drying out of the clay will affect your building. You could do wihout the fill and have a crawl space underneath if you wanted?

Regards
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby geordie » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:32 pm

oldmajor wrote:
pipoz wrote:Hi Oldmajor,



Really you need to find out what type of fill material you can get a hold of and how stable it is. If you end up buying a heavy clay fill material that is a highly reactive clay type (because it is cheap), then you simply by a long term problem and it will cost you much more when you do your foundation design. Cheap fill is not necessarily good value - spend a few dollars and have it tested, before you buy it.

I will tell you what I intend to do, however I only have to deal with a 400mm of fill, which I had tested (and it is low reactive), whereas you intend to sit your house on 1500 mm of built up fill, which is a totaly different exercise. Your problem is that your house slab is potentially sitting some 1500mm above you original ground level, assuming that too is original/undisturbed.

I simply intend to dig through my 400mm of fill, then down another 600mm into the original undisturbed base material (which by the way is also a light clay base, but undisturbed) and found my pad footing at that level (so my pad footing is 1000mm deep overall). I will then tie my foundation beams into my pads founding my tie beams 200mm down into my fill level, and ultimately sit my slab on my beams. I will design my floor slab as a suspended slab so it doesn’t sit on the fill.

I will send you a PM with my foundation-slab details, once I finished them, however you will need to discuss it with a Thai local Civil Engineer/Authority as you have a much deeper fill than me. You will need to look at your existing site soil condition and the type of fill material that you ultimately use.

Regards


Thanks a lot Pipoz.

I will be up visiting our land in about 2 weeks time. I will take samples of the original soil, get some history on the land and check that this is undisturbed. I hope to be able to visit the area where the fill will be coming from and will take samples of this also.

Let me check if I understand this.......you will design your slab to sit on your beams, so effectively, the fill is just that......fill. no amount of swelling or drying out of the clay will affect your building. You could do wihout the fill and have a crawl space underneath if you wanted?

Regards


Yes you are understanding it i agree with pipos that you plant your foundations in firm undisturbed ground
this can be done before you fill and adding walls to this can keep a crawlspace the floors will be pan pneum consrete planks with concrete over them the same as you would use on the upper floors the planks are shuttering bassically you pour concrete over them this totally eliminates any risk of settlment problems it also leaves you with a choice do you need such a vast fill or could you do an elevated plot around the house allowing nature to take its course if the area is liable to flooding are you even with an elevated plot elevated road going to be travelling anywhere personally i think displacing thousands of tons on soil is unnecesary and a waste of money RR-Nonthaburi Pak Kret suffered the floods badly last year it was taking him hours by boat to get too his new build no amount of dirt will help when the whole district is under water
so why not concentrate on what matters save you home garage workshop cars use what you save on soil to buy a small boat :wink:
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Re: Filling 2 out of 5 rai. Any problems?

Postby oldmajor » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:37 pm

[quote="geordie"]On a 1.5 mtr fill i would definately have to dig down to terra firma original ground and then some for footings even after 5 years i would not trust it to have settled enough to build unless i was intending to build on a raft foundation
A question silly as it seems but must be asked why do you need 1.5 mtrs of fill ? is the land liable to flooding ? could you with a bit of relocation add a lake to the property and have a nice fish farm as well as a lot of free fill :mrgreen:
In your case a two story house will in fact be three story if you start at original ground/footings - raise your colums fill between or keep as a crawlspace then groundbeams and start on the build proper

Thanks Geordie,
I am pleased that I have come accross this site. It looks as though I need a complete rethink. Having to wait 5 years and then not be sure if the land would be fit for purpose won't work. Do I need 1.5 metres of fill? I don't really know. I looked at most of the surrounding land and it has been raised to road height and I just assumed. It did not flood through the last rainy season. Does it make a lot of difference to footing requirements if I build a bungalow as opposed to a 2 storey house?
I do intend to build a +/- 7m X 6m workshop as well, next to the house. I imagine that we will have the same foundation issues with this.
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