Full Chanote (1 rai) or is it?

[oneday]

I recently gave my girl some money to buy 1-rai of land in her hometown. If nothing ever happens other than she now has this land, which is currently being used for rice, then that's fine with me. However, I would like to have the option of one day building a home on it for her and her family if they need it later in life. We are also looking at buying 3 more rai adjoining this land due to the fact this 1-rai is such a long thin piece.

Now here is my problem. I have verified it is a full Chonote. I read Thai, at least enough to read the title of "Chonote Tee Din" in large bold script at the top of an old, larger-than-A4, aged, yellowish, piece of paper with ownership history on the back. My girl says the Chonote says 1 rai (I didn't bother trying to read all of this thing, but I'm sure I can trust her on this).

I actually haven't seen this land with my own eyes, but my girl is a graphic designer and after she had her dad go out and measure from, what I'm sure she said, were cement markers in the ground; he came up with a long thin non-parallel trapezoid. After calculating the area from his measurements (and he did this twice, the last time with a tape measured borrowed from the land office) I came up with just over 2500 sq meters or just over 1.5 rai. My thinking now is I will have to have this land certified by the land office. I can't just go building on something that may end in dispute later down the road. If I'm lucky I'll have the happy problem of trying to have the Chonote modified to reflect the actual size if that's possible.

At least it's a hell of a lot better than being less than the 1-rai we thought she had bought. In that sense I view this as a good problem.

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with a Chonote saying one thing and the actual land being a different size? I've read on here many times that a full Chonote is land that has been surveyed using GPS, etc., etc. so it seems like this shouldn't happen.

[fredlk]

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with a Chonote saying one thing and the actual land being a different size?

On each of the chanotes that my house is on, there is an actual diagram of the land. When it was bought the Land Office was asked to came out and check if the markers were still in the correct places.

[geordie]

Unusual they normally come up short rather than over you can get the land office out to confirm it thats the safe way and as you say will avoid future dispute,s i don,t think they charge a vast sum for the service if its an old title as you say gps would not have been around I am guessing the land office will have a large scaled drawing you could judge it by if you wanted to hold off and buy the ajacent land getting it done all at the same time

[dozer]

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with a Chonote saying one thing and the actual land being a different size? I've read on here many times that a full Chonote is land that has been surveyed using GPS, etc., etc. so it seems like this shouldn't happen.

Yes, often NS3 land is upgraded to chanote without resurvey. If may be off by 10% or so// there is no warranty or guarantee whatsoever that the land amount stated on the chanote is accurate. Normally in a land transaction the contract is written by square wah subject to survey by land department.

[oneday]

Unusual they normally come up short rather than over you can get the land office out to confirm it thats the safe way and as you say will avoid future dispute,s i don,t think they charge a vast sum for the service if its an old title as you say gps would not have been around I am guessing the land office will have a large scaled drawing you could judge it by if you wanted to hold off and buy the ajacent land getting it done all at the same time

There is a diagram of the land on the Chonote, about the size of the tip of my little finger...what a joke. There are numbers with some Thai characters around the diagram that I couldn't make sense of and my girl didn't know what they were either.


Chonote by khrfx4, on Flickr

[dozer]

just a note; if possible load up your images as direct attachments to CTH. That way over time we don't end up with a bunch of broken links and stuff.

[Roger Ramjet]

oneday,
Pay a quick trip to the land office and ask them to survey the land.... it doesn't cost much and they will check the exact location of the concrete markers. I'll try and find a photo of the other markers they put in... which is on my build thread somewhere. Once you have all four located (which the land office will do for you), then it's safe to measure and calculate. It may be a little bit over or under (mine was over by 2sq metres) but that's the luck of the draw. I had a surveyor come out and do mine before they sunk the bore piles, that's when we found it was over, the land office just puts in the markers. They should be round metal plates about 3 inches in diametre sit flush with the ground. I still can't find the photos, but I will look harder.

[Roger Ramjet]

oneday,
Here's the photos of what the four corner post markers look like, there are two, one concrete and one metal on each corner:

[MGV12]

The round pins in RR's pics are the Land Office markers and the number on them should [but don't always] match with those on the diagram on your title deed. The taller square posts are usually irrigation department or road markers ... this may not be the case on RR's if they are alongside all of his round pins unless he has water/roads on all sides!

Last two surveys by the land office around CM cost 1360 Baht and there is usually a wait of at least a couple of weeks. They are quite thorough but didn't use GPS in our case.

[oneday]

Thanks a bunch for all the great replies and pictures. Now I know what I'll be looking for when I get my butt up there in a month or so. I'll also tell my girl (she just went up yesterday) to take pictures of these markers on the land so I can see them ahead of time. I'm thinking her dad may have missed some markers and went too far and measured to markers on another nearby plot. It's just really curious.

Still my main question is --- is it typical that what is written as the land size on the Chonote is VERY close to reality or is it possible what the Chonote says can be off by as much as 1/2 a rai? Obviously I'd be very happy if she bought 1.5 rai when she thought she was getting 1 rai, but I just don't think it's so.

[geordie]

does the shape of the land as the wife saw it tie in with the shape on the chanote ?its always an intrigeing problem but borders have to be firmly established from the outset or all hell will break out later but i think if you have an extra bit good luck it make,s a chang from the exagerated claims where people end up short

Do we have to wait a month now for a resolution

[oneday]

Yes, the shape of the land on the Chonote looks to match the dimensions. Something like 130m x 27m x 113m x 15m. The dirt road is down by the 15m part as can be seen (just barely) on the Chonote. Any house will have to be well back from the front, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means a long driveway and a lot more wall or some type of barrier than I want to deal with.

Well I can always hope it really is 1.5+ rai. Yes it could take a month or more to find out the answer. Unfortunately I'm letting my girl handle this (it's her land) and she has a great deal of trouble doing things the need doing when she really doesn't understand all the nuances of why. But I'll tell you what...if she doesn't do it there will be no more land or house, because she's going to have one hell of a part to play in what's going to come and it ain't gonna be easy. Without her full cooperation it won't happen.

[duane.pranburi]

having just completed the purchase of land in pranburi...the numbers (and thai equivalents) that appear on your chanote land diagram represent the numbers that appear on the smaller concrete markers lowest to the ground.

[Rick B]

Two points to make about the Chanote. First, the written number on the Chanote representing the number of rai the land represents is only an approximation. Note the word "ประมาณ" on the Chanote just prior to the place where the number of rai is written in. This Thai word means "about" or "approximately". Hence the Chanote says you have approximately 1 rai. The second point to note is that the diagram of the land layout is usually fairly accurate and is drawn to scale. So you can check your FIL's measurements by scaling the four sides of the land and seeing if they come close to what your FIL measured. It is my understanding that the "official" size of your property is that represented by the diagram, not the number written in after the word ประมาณ. You've estimated 2,500+ sq. m. of land. I estimate about 2,300-2,400 sq. m. So we're each in the same ballpark, based on using the measurements of each side as you listed them. I wouldn't worry about how much land is written on the Chanote. It's the diagram that matters and the location of the four corner markers. If you stay within those boundaries, no one should be able to give you a problem.

[MGV12]

Two points to make about the Chanote. First, the written number on the Chanote representing the number of rai the land represents is only an approximation. Note the word "ประมาณ" on the Chanote just prior to the place where the number of rai is written in. This Thai word means "about" or "approximately". Hence the Chanote says you have approximately 1 rai. The second point to note is that the diagram of the land layout is usually fairly accurate and is drawn to scale. So you can check your FIL's measurements by scaling the four sides of the land and seeing if they come close to what your FIL measured. It is my understanding that the "official" size of your property is that represented by the diagram, not the number written in after the word ประมาณ. You've estimated 2,500+ sq. m. of land. I estimate about 2,300-2,400 sq. m. So we're each in the same ballpark, based on using the measurements of each side as you listed them. I wouldn't worry about how much land is written on the Chanote. It's the diagram that matters and the location of the four corner markers. If you stay within those boundaries, no one should be able to give you a problem.

Good post Rick B