Owning, renting, leasing land

Chachoengsao, Chanthaburi, Chon Buri, Prachin, Pattaya, Rayong, Sa Kaeo, Trat

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lawyer recommendation

Postby dozer » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:52 am

Can someone please post a good lawyer recommendation in the Pattaya area for property related stuff?
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Postby John » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:39 pm

Pensit & Laws
279/13-14 Somprasong Plaza
Jomtien Beach Road
Banglamung
Chonburi 20150

Phone (038) 233 3912

Ask to speak with Dutchanee Srivicha

This company is professional and wont rip you off.
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Postby Attila » Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:57 pm

Is there a legal way to own / control land as a farang?

You know how shaky the company construction is, which is used here so often. It is tolerated for now, especially in Pattaya, but there is no guarantee that it will stay tolerated forever. Some already got problems with such a structure...

Now there are other possibilities to control land, and there is a legal and more watertight way to control the land, using a credit which you give to the land owner, and which will also get registered at the land office. And combine that with a lease contract, paid full in advance, for 30 years.

Keep in mind that this way of owning land is also much cheaper than the company way, so it's of much less interest for the law and accounting firms, which makes them usually ignoring this option :wink: or denying its existence.
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mortgage

Postby dozer » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:19 pm

using a credit which you give to the land owner


You mean you hold and register a mortgage on the property correct?
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Re: mortgage

Postby Attila » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:28 pm

dozer wrote:
using a credit which you give to the land owner


You mean you hold and register a mortgage on the property correct?


That is a part of it, but not all.

Please understand that I cannot disclose the details here, I got asked not to publish the contract or its details, which I promised. They think they have a competitive advantage here, and they do not want the others to copy it right away.

I think many would not copy it anyway because of the lower costs in comparison to a company, not only for the setup, but also with a company they have you paying every month for accounting :cry: and filing of the taxes :x

I want to offer this contract as a package included in my 2 houses which I'm selling, to make it easy for a farang to buy them. I asked them first to make me the usual company package for that, and they said they strongly advise against using the company method, and offered this way as better in every way, and on top of it much cheaper.

They do give free consultations about it though, so if someone wants to know more, just contact them for an appointment, and they will explain all in detail, without obligation for you.

I am a customer of them, and I had been a customer of others before. From what I see, I can recommend them. That is why I presented them here.
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Postby the limey » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:43 pm

Please understand that I cannot disclose the details here, I got asked not to publish the contract or its details, which I promised


Sounds a bit dodgy to me, the law is the law and all lawyers should know the law, if they don't they should not be lawyers.I really can't believe this is some unknown secret way for a farang to own a house/land.
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old con

Postby robint » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:58 pm

:)

this is an old horse chestnut and has been posted and blogged in depth

I agree, beware of so called super but secret fixes, yet another scam brewing?

The simple way which everyone seems to ignore is the 30+30+30 year lease, you should live so long. Its 100% legal

Lawyers may know the law but whether they want to tell you about it???????

I believe Thai law is based on the Napoleonic code (which in plain english mean - no case law like the UK and the States) :wink:
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Postby the limey » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:08 pm

I think multiple leases are not legal here, ie 3 plus 3 or 30 plus 30, I just done my lot on a 30 year lease, by then I will be 70 years old and either will be dead or senile so either way I wont care :) the way it's going though the senile option seems to be the most likely,but don't worry I shall keep posting here :)
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Postby Attila » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:16 pm

the limey wrote:
Please understand that I cannot disclose the details here, I got asked not to publish the contract or its details, which I promised


Sounds a bit dodgy to me, the law is the law and all lawyers should know the law, if they don't they should not be lawyers.I really can't believe this is some unknown secret way for a farang to own a house/land.


I knew this comment would come, and I would have put some money on you, Limey, to make it :wink:
What a pity that there was no one available to take the bet. :cry:

I think it is OK that if you invest some time and studies to work out some legal contracts and wordings that you try to not have it copied right away.

Also this is nothing new, it is just not offered by the usual consulting firms, because it does not guarantee them an income every month for the bookkeeping etc. for the company owning the land.

You're in Pattaya, feel free to talk with them and make up your mind directly.

the limey wrote: the law is the law and all lawyers should know the law, if they don't they should not be lawyers


Welcome to Thailand :lol: :wink:
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Re: old con

Postby Attila » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:31 pm

robint wrote::)
I agree, beware of so called super but secret fixes, yet another scam brewing?


Up to you to think that. For my part I know it's not a scam :)

robint wrote:The simple way which everyone seems to ignore is the 30+30+30 year lease, you should live so long. Its 100% legal


As far as I know the 30 year lease is OK. However the +30 and the +30+30 are not so safe. Is it guaranteed that you will get the +30 in 30 years in any case, or does it depend on the good intentions of the Thai land owner :?:

robint wrote:Lawyers may know the law but whether they want to tell you about it???????


That is a problem, here still much more than in Europe, unfortunately. I think that is why dozer is asking for recommendations here :wink:
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Postby the limey » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:49 pm

Attilia, I dont want to sound like a know it all, but I have spent over a third of my life living in Thailand, my young lady is now into her second year of her law degree, I mean I could go on about how I speak fluent Thai etc, but you can see this is just leading nowhere, 3plus 3 year leases are not worth the paper they are written on, the only way they can be enforced is if you can prove that you have done loads of expensive improvements to the building, and that has to be done in court, as for your secret way to own stuff, well.......
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law or lore

Postby robint » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:27 pm

:D

I speak effluent thai btw, get on famously with taxi drivers in the big mango

are you getting confused between a building lease or a land lease. I am referring to a land lease on which you build your own house (*which is 100% yours btw)

you can definately own a lease for 30 years (the additional 30 years, not so sure, may not be enforcible if the original landowner dies or sells the land on, ask your gf

:wink:
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Whoever likes to know more, contact a qualified lawyer.

Postby Attila » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:02 pm

the limey wrote:Attilia, I dont want to sound like a know it all, but I have spent over a third of my life living in Thailand, my young lady is now into her second year of her law degree, I mean I could go on about how I speak fluent Thai etc, but you can see this is just leading nowhere,


Hmm, I'm trying hard, but I'm not getting your point here ???

the limey wrote:3plus 3 year leases are not worth the paper they are written on,


Hey Limey, isn't that what I'm saying too (see my post above) just with much more careful words :wink: Don't confuse Robin and me, please!

the limey wrote:... as for your secret way to own stuff, well.......


Secret :?: Nothing secret :!: It's just not me explaining the details, at least not here in public, I promised not to do so. See my post above.

Whoever likes to know more, contact a qualified lawyer. If you do not find one, you might check out my recommendation above. It is there with phone number, email, addresses, names.

BTW. They didn't even offer me "the secret". I asked for an expensive company package, they did consult me (as they usually do) and did explain me why a company solution is not safe, and why they did work on solving this quite common problem. And they think they have worked out a clean and good solution. I got the paperwork for it (free, btw, which is typical for a scam, isn't it?), but with verbal and friendly non-disclosure request. Which I did promise.

If you think it is a scam, just because I do what I promised, then fine, think it. I have spoken with them, I have heard the explanations, I use them as consultants and for some legal stuff for a certain time already. I know that this is not a scam, and that I can dare to recommend them. If you know them better, and you know something about them that I don't, then please speak up and warn me. I'm recommending these guys, here and also to my friends, and I'm listening to their advice, so I'm very interested to know if I would be getting fooled.

So far I only see that I can dare to recommend them, without hesitation. And that is all what this thread is about, a recommendation.

BTW. you surely know a good and honest lawyer. Any recommendation possible?

There might be someone, who plans to have an active live of more than 30 years from now, and cannot use the 30 years lease which did solve the problem for you. 30+30+30 is not safe, as you explained, and the company construction might not even work 30 years, so what do we do now :?:
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Thai Lawyers

Postby dozer » Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:35 am

the law is the law and all lawyers should know the law
As far as Thailand goes this is definetly not true. I talked to many Thai lawyers about having 2 classes of company shares to control voting rights with under 49% of stock, common technique used but for some reason they just said no, this is how we do it here (they used the simplier illegal signed proxy method instead). It was such a simple matter that I was just amazed that lawyers in general don't know how to do it. It would be like a car mechanic not knowing what a carburetor is.

I for one would not presume to say that Attila or his lawyers don't know what they are talking about, with out knowing the specifics. I think many lawyers do find new ways to do things that other lawyers will just say 'sorry, can't be done'.

If anyone wants to say that this new method won't work, go talk to the lawyer at least and find out what it is!
Last edited by dozer on Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thai Lawyers

Postby Attila » Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:51 am

dozer wrote:
the law is the law and all lawyers should know the law
As far as Thailand goes this is definetly not true. I talked to many Thai lawyers about having 2 classes of company shares to control voting rights with under 49% of stock, common technique used but for some reason they just said no, this is how we do it here (they used the simplier illegal signed proxy method instead). It was such a simple matter that I was just amazed that lawyers in general don't know how to do it. It would be like a car mechanic not knowing what a carburetor is.


I have seen a difference in the knowledge level of lawyers not only in Thailand, but also in Western countries. More than once having a real good lawyer did let me win in hopeless situations, where the other side had the better cards, plus well known lawyers, but which apparently did spend too much time on public relations and not enough time studying the law.

What I see different in LOS is that here many lawyers do not even want to know better. The just say "mai dai - cannot", as usual here when somebody should more correctly say "mai roo - I don't know" :roll:

dozer wrote:I for one would not presume to say that Attila or his lawyers don't know what they are talking about, with out knowing the specifics. I think many lawyers do find new ways to do things that other lawyers will just say 'sorry, can't be done'.

If anyone wants to say that this new method won't work, go talk to the lawyer at least and find out what it is!


Let me also please say that I'm more than open to consider and follow any sound advice having more than "I don't know that - it cannot work" in it.

And that is what I recommend in any case. Open your eyes, listen to what the lawyer proposes, and do as you should do with everything - compare! Talk to several ones, get several offers, and then decide whom to trust.

I might not tell you details here, but the lawyer should, and the one I recommended will. If the explanation is not logic and clear, run away quickly, whomever you talk to.

Especially for farangs in Thailand, who plan on staying here, it is extremely important to make no mistake here. Do not rely on that something that is tolerated today, will still get tolerated tomorrow. Better get the law on your side. :wink:
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