Building in Phayao

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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Saffles » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:16 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Actually the concrete quote sound OK as preparation will take about 6 weeks even with a baby Maco to dig the footings.

And your quote is about 9 people per day for 6 weeks possibly some of them being wives, having taken of the crew boss cut


9 people 7 days a week for 6 weeks? That would be over 700 per person per day.

Crane sounds like a good idea for various projects.

Mark
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby pipoz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:37 am

Saffles wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:
With 51 columns, and I assume 51 footings I would recommend a crane with a concrete bucket at least or even better a concrete pump...

That's what we did and your house seems quite a bit bigger.


Main Floor is 167 sq mt
The "basement" (ground-level) floor is the same but I think I will not be doing all where the wings are
Veranda is 80 sq mt
Carport is 42 sq mt

My original labor quote was 285,000 for the concrete work!! At 400 per person per day for 20 people that is well over a month...

Crane or pump charge per day?

Thanks,

Mark


Hi Mark

I can tell you that my initial all up Structure Cost was TB 600,000 (for Materials & Labour) for 151 m2 of Structure Footprint area, at a total cost of around TB 3,974 per m2 of footprint. My structure was also a little over designed, more DB16 bars than needed, plus I had an elaborate concrete Roof Ring Beam layout and 250 x 250 columns (Pictures on Page 2 of my Build).

The Structure from setting out/digging the foundations to completion of the roof ring beam was 26 working days and from memory the average number of workers on site each day was 6 No. Sometimes 8 No when he was doing a the ground slab and roof beam concrete pours. Also from memory (although I have all the exact figures somewhere) his labour cost included within the TB 600,000, was around TB 180,000 which equated to just under TB 1,200 per m2 of Footprint area. This was back in May-June 2014.

All the structure from pad footing to concrete roof bean was done from the back of the concrete truck, which you can do if you have reasonable access to the slab area on all sides. Failing that the Thai's will add extra chutes to extend the chute on the truck. Rarely will the Thai's spend their money on a concrete pump unless it is to do a second floor slab pour or above. Its unlikely he will shell out money for a concrete pump for footings, ground slab or even columns. Make sure he has a concrete vibrator. :shock:

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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby pipoz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:44 pm

Hi Mark

I might also add that last August I built a Garage/Tool Room/Laundry/WC (Page 51 - 56 my Build) - Ground Foot print was 94m2 and Roof Slab was another 37 m2 = Total slab area 131 m2

Much in the same style as the house, pad footing (10 No), ground beams, end up being an RC 200 mm thick ground slab, 250 x 250 Columns (10 No), RC Roof Ring Beam and an upper level RC Concrete Roof Slabs over the Tool Room/Laundry/WC (37 m2).

Structure was complete in around 25 working days. Most of the time a 5 Person No Crew (3 Men and 2 Women), up to 7 No when they did the ground slab and roof beam pours, so all up total about 135 man days. I paid them TB 150,000 to do the concrete structure works, a bit more than expected, but was happy to do it since I wasn't on site.

That works out to be TB 1,145 per m2 for Labour for the RC Structure (TB150,000 / 131m2)

I find that the Thais' tend to want to price per m2 , as it is something they appear to understand from past experience. Then they add a bit more onto the M2 Rate if the structure is over and above the Thai typical standard building method. :lol: :shock:

Hope this helps

pipoz
Attachments
Garage Roof Steel Complete 10 October 2016.jpg
Garage Roof Steel Complete 10 October 2016
West Garage Footing Ground Beam Layout - 1A.jpg
West Garage Footing Ground Beam Layout - 1A
West Garage Roof Beam Layout and Types Drawing  -9010.jpg
West Garage Roof Beam Layout and Types Drawing -9010
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:33 pm

Saffles wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Actually the concrete quote sound OK as preparation will take about 6 weeks even with a baby Maco to dig the footings.

And your quote is about 9 people per day for 6 weeks possibly some of them being wives, having taken of the crew boss cut


9 people 7 days a week for 6 weeks? That would be over 700 per person per day.

Crane sounds like a good idea for various projects.

Mark

You've forgotten to take off the cut for the crew boss, he's not going to give all the cash to the workers he's taking about 40% (how do you think he's paying for his new pickup :D ) and it's 9 people 6 weeks 6 days a week average.

The amount you are paying him means that it's his problem when people quit because, it's Monday, a grandmother is sick, they don't get on with the crew, they get too drunk to work, they have enough money, they don't like you, etc.
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Saffles » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:26 pm

Pipoz,

Very good for nformation. Thanks.

A question for a budding (or experienced) engineer...

I been doing a lot of reading about load factors of dirt against the wall (plus water) and it seems it is because of, mostly, gravity forcing the dirt against the wall. But that would be if there is a slope TOWARDS the wall. What about when the slope is AWAY from the wall? I cannot find any info on this. Would not the load be significantly reduced?

Always pondering...

Mark
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby pipoz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:29 pm

Saffles wrote:Pipoz,

Very good for nformation. Thanks.

A question for a budding (or experienced) engineer...

I been doing a lot of reading about load factors of dirt against the wall (plus water) and it seems it is because of, mostly, gravity forcing the dirt against the wall. But that would be if there is a slope TOWARDS the wall. What about when the slope is AWAY from the wall? I cannot find any info on this. Would not the load be significantly reduced?

Always pondering...

Mark


Look up Active Wall Pressure on Google (Images) and it will give you an idea.

You will have Active Pressure on the back side on a Retaining Wall (RW) structure if you have a fill type material behind that wall, whether it be from a slope towards the wall, or from a slope away from the wall (yes normally less than the later) or even with no slope at all. The amount of Active Pressure (i.e the force pushing against the Retaining Wall) will depend largely on the type of fill/soil/sand/gravel, that you use behind the retaining wall and how you place it and also the amount of water that might be retained in that fill/soil after rainfall- that is if you are not installing drainage behind that wall. Most people install a drainage system immediately behind the retaining wall, so as to relieve the pressure build up from water retention.


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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Saffles » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:01 am

Pipoz,

I have been reading all of the scholarly articles and making the best of it, as can (never studied higher math).

"The most important consideration in proper design and installation of retaining walls is to recognize and counteract the tendency of the retained material to move downslope due to gravity. This creates lateral earth pressure behind the wall..." Wikipedia

I saw all the complex formulas and think that the active and passive pressures should not be so much. I do realize that the expansion of soil would add to the pressure.

I am thinking back to my mother's house... She has two retaining walls on either side of a basement garage. The slopes to each side are positive (away from walls). The walls are constructed of concrete block, not sure of reinforcement. They have been there 30 years with no problems.

Anyway... I have too much time on my hands.

Thanks,

Mark
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Saffles » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:52 pm

Went to the friendly local building supply store... such nice people... getting a rough idea about the BOQ prices that I got Saturday. Just normal everyday material prices are considerably cheaper than the quote I got from the engineer. Not even do quantity discounts yet.

While there a few builders came in (imagine that at a supply store!) and all want to do my house, of course. One guy said his normal labor charge was 2500 per square meter for the house and about 1200 for other stuff. The shop owner told him to go lower... Hahahaha

I want the builders to give me prices on different stages of the build, if they will. We are not in a hurry to finish the house and might do the house in stages... Concrete work first, roof, walls, etc.

Shop owner gave us the place to rent forms for the concrete and the family there were also very considerate. He gave a price for the forms at 40 baht per meter... For both beams and columns. He said we could keep them many days and if had a small crew they could do part of the concrete work at a time, not have to rent more forms. Will have to discuss with the builders about pace of work when we narrow it down. The original BOQ had over 100,000 for form rental.

My wife had a quick trip to Chiang Mai and stayed with her cousin. Cousin's husband is the highest level of engineer and is a builder... He does a lot of the cookie-cutter housing estates in CM. He said the engineer way over designed the concrete structure, especially with the 51 columns... Some being only 1.2 meters apart. Will have this looked at by another engineer. My house has a lot of short walls and angles but there must be a better way to tie things together and have a solid surface for the roof to attach.

Giant rain now in Phayao...

Mark
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:39 pm

Saffles wrote:Shop owner gave us the place to rent forms for the concrete and the family there were also very considerate. He gave a price for the forms at 40 baht per meter... For both beams and columns. He said we could keep them many days and if had a small crew they could do part of the concrete work at a time, not have to rent more forms. Will have to discuss with the builders about pace of work when we narrow it down. The original BOQ had over 100,000 for form rental.

The original quote for form rental is ridiculous, it makes everything suspicious.

The standard here is about 3 Baht per form per day

The commitment for you to keep them for many days should be in writing.

I would not do the beams bit by bit as you will loose strength with dry joints but the footings and columns would be no problem, as long as you do each column or footing in one go.
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Klondyke » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:20 pm

Saffles wrote:... He said the engineer way over designed the concrete structure, especially with the 51 columns... Some being only 1.2 meters apart. Will have this looked at by another engineer. My house has a lot of short walls and angles but there must be a better way to tie things together and have a solid surface for the roof to attach.
Mark

Have anybody seen a family house in Europe built with columns?
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:10 am

Klondyke wrote:
Saffles wrote:... He said the engineer way over designed the concrete structure, especially with the 51 columns... Some being only 1.2 meters apart. Will have this looked at by another engineer. My house has a lot of short walls and angles but there must be a better way to tie things together and have a solid surface for the roof to attach.
Mark

Have anybody seen a family house in Europe built with columns?

Virtually every wood framed house still standing in England, my brothers house dating from about 1600 is one and there are many examples, all true halftimbered houses use columns with infill walls and there are thousands (possibly millions) still standing.
Has anbody seen a family house built in Thailand without columns?
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Klondyke » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Klondyke wrote:
Saffles wrote:... He said the engineer way over designed the concrete structure, especially with the 51 columns... Some being only 1.2 meters apart. Will have this looked at by another engineer. My house has a lot of short walls and angles but there must be a better way to tie things together and have a solid surface for the roof to attach.
Mark

Have anybody seen a family house in Europe built with columns?

Virtually every wood framed house still standing in England, my brothers house dating from about 1600 is one and there are many examples, all true halftimbered houses use columns with infill walls and there are thousands (possibly millions) still standing.
Has anbody seen a family house built in Thailand without columns?


I believe you. Do they still nowadays make the buildings with the wood frame?

Anyway, that was not what I meant never to see for a family housing in Europe (and in England):

Image

Not only in Europe (and England too :D ), in USA perhaps 80% of houses are built with a tiny vertical structure of studs 3"x1.5" every 1 ft (that's why their windows are not sliding but lifting). (I know, that's why the houses are flying very easily when a hurricane arrives :cry: )

Has anbody seen a family house built in Thailand without columns?

Yes, but it is very rare.

There are things the Thais do always same as has been made before: And they always had made the houses by teak columns (sau) - the thicker the better image - then the roof, the walls are not so important :shock:

When the teak has no longer been available (for normal people) another (affordable) material for the columns has been found. And the walls are still not so important...
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Klondyke wrote:I believe you. Do they still nowadays make the buildings with the wood frame?

Yes, though today they mostly follow the American "stick" model. For the same reason that Thai's don't use teak, the traditional post material was oak and there's not much of it about. One of the primary cheap sources was the breaking up of British (mostly navy) wooden ships.

There are sill a few houses built that way but you probably need to either be a millionaire or own your own forest.

FWIW a friend of mine does own a small forest and built a post and beam house about 30 years ago.
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby Saffles » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:44 pm

Talked with several local builders and all agree the engineer really over engineered the structure. The builder who built the wife's sisters house (where we stay now) came by today and took a copy of the plans. Just rough guessing he was already several hundreds of thousands lower than the first one. He said could do a top-notch house for 10,000 per sq meter (SIL house was 8000 and is better than average). Should get detailed numbers from him in a few days.

Mark
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Re: Building in Phayao

Postby olavhome » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:24 pm

Just check out whats included : Kitchen, bathroom, how much electric etc :-)
And later also you will need some furniture.....
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