Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Thaipom26 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:06 pm

Week 21

21 – 26 March, the week we moved in and I can’t tell you what a wonderful moment that was. Obviously the move will be covered in this post but there is a lot else happening still around the build so this week will be a long read. I will also come clean with those things that aren’t right although there is a temptation to set myself up as the only guy who got a house build 100% in Thailand, I’m afraid it isn’t so.

The builders have basically finished the inside and have now moved to some of the more detailed work outside, which gave us the the freedom to claim the house and move in. There is still some work to be done inside to make it fully operational. The main one is the kitchen which is waiting the granite benchtop. Until that arrives we can’t install the sink, connect the drinking water filter or cut in the gas cooktop.

DSC_03062.jpg
My coffee machine has been given priority and is in its designed position but sitting on a floor tile. Yes those are little vodka bottles. Nothing to do with coffee I just haven’t found another spot for them :-)

There are some very minor touch-ups around the place that others may not notice but I do. Rather than get Ming involved I will do them myself over time although if I leave them long enough I won’t see them any more and save myself the effort!

The week started with that slightly frantic activity when the builders know you are hanging out to move and they try to get everything finished so you can get going. The ensuites were the main delay at this stage and all action was happening in this part of the house. The plumbing, which has been the most woeful aspect of the build, was causing all sorts of problems. I have done some building work in the past but never tackled plumbing and I thought Ming knew what he was doing in things like the location of the piping etc. so basically left him to it. Mistake.

For some reason the outlet pipes for the two wash basins and the kitchen sink have been positioned as close to the wall as you could get. The toilet outlets were in the right place thank goodness but the water inlets weren’t. All of this required extensive work to reposition everything when if they were located correctly in the first place a lot of time and effort could have been saved.

LESSON: Even if you know nothing about whatever aspect of the build is happening at this moment it could well be that you know more than the Thai builders! Given my time again I would have been a lot more active in the placement of the plumbing pipes before the slab was poured.

However as I wasn’t paying for the labour it was nothing to me other than time. The end result has worked out fine as you can see below:

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The ensuite as it looks today, still with some work to be done.

Cold water to the basin only. I never used hot water in Australia so saw no point adding it here. The measurement is 2.8 x 2.0 meters and is a spacious and uncluttered space. The ceiling extractor fan is a Panasonic and will cost you more than double a window mounted one. This one has a flexible pipe that takes it to a vent cut into the eves.

It is very quiet and seems to do the job. I went for this option rather than the wall one because I wanted to be able to seal the bathroom from noise at night and I also think they look ugly.

I will stick to the bathroom theme and show you some minor but avoidable mistakes.

DSC_03081.jpg
I now look forward to shower time. If only it was centered.

Before I talk about the negatives let me tell you that this is the best shower in Thailand by far! Massive amounts of water, you can have it as hot as you like and it is just bliss after 1 1/2+ years of rubbish “run around to get wet” showers with lukewarm water.

However the shower head and tap aren’t in the middle of the wall :-( and this applies to both showers, which if you are trying to achieve the best result possible is one for the minus side of the ledger. I have to say that I don’t know why the placement was so poor. I know we decided to move the shower wall to make the enclosure wider, but I am sure that decision was made during the time the wall plumbing was being fitted.

The other silly aspect is that, as I mentioned above, the waste pipes were stuck right next to the wall. That has meant that I have to have a crappy Thai outlet cover rather than a nice classy unit, which would be so easy to install in Australia where the water outlets are in the middle of the shower floor. If the pipe had been moved a few cm I could have achieved this. Oh well. The alternative was to jackhammer the floor to relocate the pipe and I just couldn’t be bothered.

Back to the positive again. Having a venting pipe outside for the grey water means that the water exits the shower super quickly unlike so many Thai showers where, even with a pathetic water flow, you end up flooding the bathroom because the back-pressure in the grey water pipe outlet prevents the water exiting rapidly.

The bathrooms still need to have skirting boards put in and a white granite shelf will be installed along with the kitchen benchtops. I will update the photos once fully completed.

The electrical fitout was completed on the Saturday, which was the other major holdup in us moving in. The total cost of around 32,000 THB, which will show in this week’s spreadsheet, was for the entire electrical from wiring the house to connections. It involved some complex work around the water system, which I will cover shortly, the hot water tank outside, and 97 switches and power points.

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Our new dining table, still to be stained, and the lighting in operation. All LED.

HINT: For those building here and reading about how cheap it is and budgeting accordingly watch out.It certainly can be cheap. For example a light switch/power point can be provided for 150 THB. However the catch is that this is an electrical wire stapled to the wall with a switch box stuck onto the wall. Two switches=two wires etc. Maybe not the best look but certainly cheap. It is what you’ll see in many Thai homes.

If you want wiring within a conduit inside the wall or between the two walls in my case and power boxes cut into the walls to make them flush, then you will be paying a lot more. 350 THB in my case. BTW this includes all the associated wiring not just for the box itself. Still super cheap by Aussie standards but very expensive by Thai.

On the Sunday the air conditioning people turned up to install the two 9,000 BTU inverter Mitsubishi Electric air conditioners in the two bedrooms. Bought for 21,500 THB each including installation at the local electrical outlet.

Just out of interest the recommended size for rooms of our dimensions is 12,000 BTU. It is one of the benefits of the double AAC walls, double glazing and good insulation.
The installers and I did end up having words at the end of what they thought was a completed job. The conduit covering the wiring that brings the power from the ceiling ended a few cm below the wires because they were slightly to the left of the end of the conduit.

Now in a Thai situation having a few pretty coloured wires coming out of your ceiling would be quite acceptable. For a farang maybe less so. On being told that no payment was forthcoming until they fixed it the installers repositioned the conduit so that the wires are now covered. As one of the workmen commented, the air con people had obviously never worked for a farang before.

I have made a few slightly derogatory remarks about the standard of Thai building but they are not intended to be rubbishing Thais. Decisions are usually made around a very tight budget and often based on how things have always been done. Where a workman makes 350 THB a day spending that amount on a power point is not an option. Exposed wiring is what you see everywhere. There is no need for contractors to be meticulous in the finish because most people don’t care or even notice. As long as it works what’s the problem? Getting Thais to understand that they are required to operate on a different level is the problem for us farang and it is something that required endless attention.

The final thing to sort out was the house and garden water system. The arrangement we had been using to date was always temporary as the main water filter processing the bore water wasn’t connected. This is because we had set it up to filter the bore water before it went into the main holding tank. The submersible pump and the high output of our bore completely overwhelmed the capacity of the filter, which is why we disconnected it.

The other complication was that we wanted two taps located in the garden so that Gaun could keep up with her plant watering. I didn’t want these to be fed from filtered water unlike Canberra where we provide chlorinated water to everything and have ants with the best teeth in the world.
The end solution was as follows. This is covered with lots of photos on my blog, which I can't fit in this post. Link at the end.

DSC_02951.jpg
The end result. Gaun has moved immediately into planting up to hide the tanks! That pump will have a cover.

Step 1: The bore water is pumped to this 2,000 liter holding tank. An electronic water level device in the tank ensures the submersible pump only turns on once when the tank is nearly empty and fills it to the top.

Step 2: A second pressure pump feeds water from the main tank through the water filter into a 1,000 litre holding tank for house use only. A separate pipe takes pressured water from this pump and sends it to the two garden taps unfiltered.

Step 3: Another pressure pump takes water from the filtered holding tank and feeds it to the house. This is a good quality unit to provide the pressure I wanted for my super showers!

So dead simple – three pumps, two filters, three water tanks, one hot, and you turn a tap and get water :-)

The end result is perfect. I have high pressure everywhere and clean water inside the house. Drinking water will come from another high quality five stage unit which has been installed under the sink if I had one!

With water on, bathrooms operational, the lighting and power in it was time to move the amazing quantity of stuff I had collected from where it was currently stored in the the family home around the corner to the new place. This was a mixture of personal things I had shipped out from Australia, including a couple of pieces of furniture I was dying to see in the new house, things we had bought to set ourselves up for a 12 months stay in Chiang Mai and furniture we had specifically bought for the house since moving to Isaan in November.

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It was a family effort. My sister-in-law Yuan and brother-in-law Lud helping out.

The septic tank had been filled with water when it was installed to stop any possibility of it popping out of the hole if it rained, pictures of which you can find on Thai building forums. We now had to pay to remove the water. A small pump would have done the job but no one had one to offer.

These tankers come around once a day to service Thai houses that only have small septic systems needing pumping out on a regular basis. We have a 1,600 litre unit, which will self maintain and not need emptying providing you allow the bacteria to do their thing and not kill them off with harsh toilet chemicals.

Speaking of harsh chemicals Thais on the whole don’t bother with any of them. Things are cleaned with a cloth and water. It is amazing how they have survived when in our society we are programmed into spraying everything with specialised chemicals to kill 99.9% of deadly germs so that our kids don’t contract some deadly disease. Like governments, advertising agencies are built around creating fear and then coming up with the solution to keep us all safe. Don’t get me started.

On the Wednesday our lounges and entertainment unit arrived from Living Index. The entertainment unit was a decent quality flat pack. Unlike Australia where you’d spend the next three days trying to work out how to put it together here the two delivery guys assemble it for us. Bliss.

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The lounge room in the evening. A cosy tropical feel.

You can also see in this photo that the curtains were delivered and really finish and soften the room. The venetian blinds were delayed and will be installed in Week 22.

The A Team having finished the electrical and water system headed off to do some work for the Moo Baan or local village but then arrived back a few days later because I had asked them to build my front wall and entrance gateway. I pay them as soon as they finish so they give me preference over others in the queue.

Needless to say I want a more complicated arrangement than normal. We are building two walls one in front of the other. The lower one will run 60 cm in front of the 1.8 meter privacy wall and provide a flower bed that Gaun will keep constantly in colour. The main wall will run across the 20 meter width of the land with a 4 meter stainless steel powered entry gate on the left hand side as you look at the house.

The bottom half of the wall will be rendered concrete painted in the house colour. The top half will be slatted palings so that people can get a glimpse of Gaun’s garden once established :-)

A separate 1 meter entry gate will give access to the house because the main gate will be mainly closed to prevent dogs and stray children from wandering onto the land. There will be lights on four of the columns, two at the small gate and two on the main one. Power will also be provided to the main gate for the electronic opener.
I will concrete from the road to the rear of the gate but leave the gravel in place to the carport for the time being.

Apart from the design my other criteria was that the walls stayed upright for more than 12 months. The Thais are big on walls but build them on small foundations with no supporting reinforcing so that over time they lean over and sometimes collapse. My philosophy for everything to do with the house has been to pay more now to get right the first time. When in doubt buy bigger.

I will report on how the wall has been designed to achieve my goals and you’ll see it finished by the end of the week. The gate takes two weeks to manufacture so that will be a later install.

Finally you might be interested to read how is the house performing in the heat. It is very early days of course but so far it is looking good. We had a 38 degree day in the shade yesterday and the house held 28 degrees all day with no increase during the hot afternoon. This is a comfortable temperature with a fan except for those farang that like to replicate their European winter temperatures inside their Thai houses. I do use the air con in the bedroom at night set on 27, which just takes the edge off the temperature, but would be reasonably comfortable without it.

The house does hold the heat, which I knew it would do with the high level of insulation. However I have an inside/outside temperature gauge set-up and once the outside gets cooler than the inside I open up the windows and doors. The whole house has been designed to allow any breeze to flow through with windows positioned opposite doors.

I do the opposite in the morning and once the outside temperature heats up to more than the internal I close the house up and that’s the way it stays during the day. So far so good.

I would show you more photos of the inside but truthfully the apart from the lounge the rest is work in progress. Maybe things will be presentable by the end of this week and I can give you a full tour.

I am nearing the end of this journey of building during the week and then sharing the stories with you afterwards. There may be a couple more weeks in it but then I will only report back on an irregular basis mainly to update progress on the garden and any new ideas we get.

We will shortly stop our almost daily visits to Global House, we are going there after I finish this post, and settle into enjoying the house and garden. It is an activity or is that non-activity I am really looking forward to.

Because of the detail in this huge week many photos have been excluded here. You can find the full post on my bloghttp://tonyinthailand.com/building-in-isaan-week-21/
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Thaipom26 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Week 22

28 March – 3 April, a week of settling into the new house, another kitchen and the wall.

Only those of you who have spent time living in a basic Thai village house can appreciate what a pleasure it is to move into a western style home again. I don’t mean to imply that I have been living on the edge for the last five months because the family home provided all the basics; shelter, a comfortable bed, a western toilet and a hot shower. Not exactly doing it tough.

What it couldn't provide was comfort, cool from the 40 degree temperatures we are getting at the moment, quiet and cleanliness. The latter only as a result of the design of the house which leaves a large gap between the top of the walls and the start of the roof. The roof beams sit on top of the walls and the space has never been filled in, a common situation here, maybe providing extra ventilation. Although it may allow the cool air in and hot air out it also gives easy access to the sugar cane residual, which floats everywhere after they burn off, gekkos and dust, and Isaan is a terribly dusty place in the dry season.

My house wonderfully sealed, so although keeping outside clean is a constant challenge, inside is everything the family house wasn’t.

There are four main jobs to be completed before we can say a thankful goodbye to builders and they are: (1) the Thai kitchen (2) the pond (3) the front wall and gates and (4) the granite benchtop for the kitchen. This week three of the four were being worked on.

The design of the house provided for two outside living spaces, a lounge area on the East and a dining area on the West. Breakfast and mornings to be spent on the West, the cool side before moving to the East late afternoon for drinks in the lounge area. Yes, it is a hard life.

My original drawn plans for the house didn’t have an outside kitchen included for some reason. It was always my intention to have one both for my Aussie BBQ and for when Gaun wants to cook up something especially spicy, usually incorporating a sauce which the Thais call “fish dead long time”. I rest my case for outside cooking facilities.

We had bought three good quality plastic cupboard units from Global House and they had made the move across from the family home waiting their turn to be included in the build. This was their week!

DSC_0292.jpg
The Thai kitchen starts to go in.

Render is a wonderful hide-all. It allows a total mess on the blockwork to be covered up and end up looking super professional.

And the end result? Everything I wished for:

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That dining setting was bought from Global House needless to say. Expensive by Thai standards but the table takes four people to move and the chairs are very solid – a two hand lift. Super comfortable too. Will outlast me.

This was always part of my philosophy for building a house in tropical Thailand. I didn’t want to construct an air conditioned prison with no connection to the outside world, especially once the garden gets established. There are certainly times when retreating inside is a sensible thing to do but equally there are periods where being comfortably outside is also an attractive option. An icy cold beer and a steak from the BBQ, Aussie and NZ steak can be bought from Makro for those locals reading, and all would be pretty good with the world. You can see that I have started testing the beer in the photo above.

Because the Thai kitchen wasn’t included in the plans it was outside Ming’s original quote for labour. He ended up charging me 4,500 THB or A$150.00 to build it.

Kitchen finished Ming and Jack moved to the pond, which once finished will house Barney the turtle, when he/she makes an appearance on the family farm in the wet season, and some Koi to eat any mosquito eggs.

DSC_0432.jpg
I chose a soft green tile to blend into the garden. The red carport steel will be changed if you were thinking that “blending” had taken a day off.

The area beyond the pond, behind the carport in this photo, will be grassed to help soften the whole area. The pond will be finished in Week 23 so I will report back on the end result then.

The major piece of work happening this week was the construction of the front wall and gateways. I had originally thought that I would just replicate the barbed wire fence we have around three sides of the land and plant a hedge to hide the ugliness in time. However I ended up ordering a full concrete wall with slatted palings. The A Team, a group of four super guys who have done a lot of the construction on my place, contracted to build it for 15,000 THB, which seemed a good deal especially as I knew I would be getting a quality result.

I mentioned last week that my main brief for the wall was that it stayed upright, an essential criteria for any wall in my opinion except in Pisa, but not necessarily a requirement for Thai walls.

DSC_0312.jpg
The main foundations tied back to secondary foundations to ensure the whole thing stays upright.

I also wanted it to incorporate a garden bed for some of Gaun’s flowers and have two gateways, one for the car and one for people access as the main gate would be closed most of the time.

DSC_0343.jpg

You can see the double wall arrangement in the photo above. The front footings will support a low wall, which will form Gaun’s flower bed with the main full height wall behind. Gaun is posing at what will be the small gateway into the property.

The design was also complicated in that the wall had to work around two trees rather than cutting them down, another unfortunately quick solve in many cases here.

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The wall going around this tree. The Thais must think I am crazy. After all that digging around the roots the thing will probably die on me!

I have also incorporated an power point for an electronic gate opener although, because we hardly use the car here once we stop going to Global House every other day, I am not sure that I will bother putting one in.

Next week will see the end of builders until the next project. A BIG BLOODY hooray on that one. The wall and pond will be finished, the carport painted and the granite benchtop installed. It will be brilliant to have a fully functional inside kitchen again after so long and to have drinking water that isn’t shipped from the rainwater tanks at the family home.

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The house as of yesterday.

I have to say that I am a very happy Thai houseowner the end of Week 22. There is more information on my blog as I exclude topics that are not strictly building related here. You can find it herehttp://tonyinthailand.com/building-in-isaan-week-22/

I will publish the full expenses spreadsheet here next week for those that don't visit my blog.
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby kknaj » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:13 pm

Looks like you got a good price for the labor on that house. Nice fit and finish for the money. What is the final cost for materials and labor just for the house (not garden and Boundry walls) ?
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby kiwimartin » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:02 pm

Great information and nice build Tony...the steps you describe below are of real interest. I have 12 x 2000 litre tanks (the same brand as yours). We will capture rainwater - supplemented by a local supplier. I plan to use the first tank as a first filter (sediment catchment ) and use a top overflow to fill the subsequent 11 tanks, connected in series. Would a rough filter between tanks one and two, followed by an exit reverse osmosis filter after tank 12, before entering the house, be a reasonable solution to having safe water in all of our house taps? Where would you site the pumps? I would be really interested in your opinion. Thanks.

Step 1: The bore water is pumped to this 2,000 liter holding tank. An electronic water level device in the tank ensures the submersible pump only turns on once when the tank is nearly empty and fills it to the top.

Step 2: A second pressure pump feeds water from the main tank through the water filter into a 1,000 litre holding tank for house use only. A separate pipe takes pressured water from this pump and sends it to the two garden taps unfiltered.

Step 3: Another pressure pump takes water from the filtered holding tank and feeds it to the house. This is a good quality unit to provide the pressure I wanted for my super showers!

So dead simple – three pumps, two filters, three water tanks, one hot, and you turn a tap and get water
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby pipoz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:53 pm

Hi Tony,

Re. On the Sunday the air conditioning people turned up to install the two 9,000 BTU inverter Mitsubishi Electric air conditioners in the two bedrooms. Bought for 21,500 THB each including installation at the local electrical outlet.

Don't suppose you know what Model Number the Mitsubishi 9,000 BTU inverter, are?

Also how many m2 is each room, they are going in? I presume you have one per room

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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:55 am

http://www.topcoolair.com/mitsubishi/inverter.html Gives the models of Mitsubishi inverters and current going rate prices.
topcoolair is a good site to check prices, you can often get a bit lower than the fitted price they list but not much
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Thaipom26 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:53 am

1. The build costs as of today are as follows. Exclude carport and front wall for a true house cost. Add 16,000 for granite benchtop.

Expenses.jpg
Total build costs to date.


2. The ME air con unit is MSY-GK09VA and the room size is around 40 m2. The 9,000 BTU does it easily. Very impressed with them especially in a bedroom. When they are ticking over you literally almost can't hear them. The compressor outside is super quiet too. One per bedroom.

3. Kiwimartin - I am no expert on water tanks and the house supply. I was a suburban house owner back home and all of that stuff was someone else's problem. I see there is a "Water and Plumbing" section in coolthaihouse. Maybe a copy of the question posted there might get you a more expert opinion than mine, which wouldn't be hard :D

The solution I have was worked out by the building team although I did follow the logic and approve the final plan. Based on my limited knowledge I am thinking that you'll need a pump to force the water through the filter between tanks 1 and 2. The pump would need controlled to turn on when tank 1 is full and turn off when it was mostly empty as you are relying on rainwater. This is the opposite to my bore pump controller, which turns on when tank 1 is nearly empty and turns off when full!

The maximum capacity of my large filter is I think around 1,000 per hour, which is why the 8,000 liter per hour bore capacity was overwhelming it when we had it before the first tank. A final pump on tank 12 to pressurise the house would be needed too.

I am wondering if you shouldn't be accessing tank 2 for the house and let the other reserve tanks flow back to it? In dry times wouldn't tank 12 be the last to get the benefit of the top up from the other tanks? My thinking may be off track on that one.

Cheers Tony
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby pipoz » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:14 am

Thaipom26 wrote:
2. The ME air con unit is MSY-GK09VA and the room size is around 40 m2. The 9,000 BTU does it easily. Very impressed with them especially in a bedroom. When they are ticking over you literally almost can't hear them. The compressor outside is super quiet too. One per bedroom.

Cheers Tony


Thanks Tony and is that just one 9000 BTU Unit MSY-GK09VA in the 40m2 room area

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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Klondyke » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:36 pm

kiwimartin wrote:Great information and nice build Tony...the steps you describe below are of real interest. I have 12 x 2000 litre tanks (the same brand as yours). We will capture rainwater - supplemented by a local supplier. I plan to use the first tank as a first filter (sediment catchment ) and use a top overflow to fill the subsequent 11 tanks, connected in series. Would a rough filter between tanks one and two, followed by an exit reverse osmosis filter after tank 12, before entering the house, be a reasonable solution to having safe water in all of our house taps? Where would you site the pumps? I would be really interested in your opinion. Thanks.


Hi Kiwi,
I do not know whether you came across my thread where I have described my troubles with a strong ironized bore water and the final satisfying solution, perhaps it can give you few ideas, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4611

In my idea and experience, your 24,000 litre storage is quite a lot of water to be spent. And in the Southern islands there is surely more frequent raining than in our North with 6 months dry season. I have some 5 - 6,000 litre storage for house, for daily addition to swimming pool 60,000 l and koi pool 5,000 l, plus 2 cars and 3 dogs wash, 2 gardens spraying. The water is replenished within 5 - 7 days cyclus.

Anyway, the long standing water in the storage is recommended be occasionally slightly treated by chlorine (ca. once a week), to be a bit assured that no bad bacterias will enjoy the swimming there. Instead of chlorine or in addition, the ancient and miraculous material for water treatment Alum (SaanSom in Thai) that is easily obtainable in Thailand, can be used, it contributes also to water clearing/floculation.

In case your bore water will contain iron, then a slow sand filtering (by gravitation) is recommended, but perhaps not at all 12 transfers (4 -5 would be enough). Important is at the end of the vessel cascade a presure vessel sand filter, with backwashing function (the blue steel cylinder that most of Thai houses have or a plastic one as offered by GH, TW, etc). The automatic pressure pump normally pushes the water through this filter into the pipe system. When the water has time enough for a proper sedimentation, this filtering should be good enough for the house usage. Not sure about the osmosis, a filter - as offered for households in many styles and prices - should be installed in kitchen for the cooking/drinking use.

The rain water should be led in separate tanks for a proper sedimentation (unbelievable dirt comes from roof), then occasionally repumped for contribution into the main system.

This is my experience, a solution after many different styles advised/offered by local "experts". But surely, other solutions could be good too.
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby kiwimartin » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:03 pm

Thanks for that very helpful answer Klondyke. I will check your link. I will post my solution on my site when my research is complete - thanks for the space Tony.
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby Thaipom26 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:04 pm

Yes just the one unit per bedroom i.e. the 40 m2 each room.
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Re: Building in Si Bun Ruang, Isaan

Postby stevenff » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:28 am

Hi Tony
Nice build. I was curious what you mean by fixtures in your cost sheet. Are those lighting fixtures? Appliances?
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