Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby schuimpge » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:13 am

gliffaes wrote:
terp80 wrote:Thanks for the sage advice. My problem is in the details, not so much in the finish work, but in the more basic engineering and construction and in the more technical stuff, i.e. plumbing and electric. (That sounds like pretty much everything doesn't it. :lol: ) I hope to find a builder who can speak fairly good English, as my Thai is "limited" shall we say, and my Thai GF can not be on site much as she lives in BKK. :cry: But I do plan to be on site [almost?] everyday, and for most of the day. I'll continue to read these building threads and try and learn as much as I can. So we'll see.
Oh, BTW, I was thinking of wallpapering over render perhaps in a few years. Is that feasible? Thanks! :)

Yes you can paper over render but I wouldnt bother, after spending years papering it never last long, 5-6 years looks tatty. if not the type you can paint over.
Go for plasterboard walls for a smoother finish better suited to paper, but then again I wouldnt hahahaha


From many years ago, in the Netherlands, practice was for a newly constructed house to get a 'construction-wallpaper' on rendered walls.
They where called that, because they served as a first wallpaper that would saturate and more or less 'seal' the newly rendered walls.
Typical advise was to leave it on for 1-2 years and then replace it with the paper of your choice which would then last much better and longer.
This construction-wallpaper was quite thick and sturdy, but just average bland white/cream with some patterns in it.

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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby terp80 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:52 pm

@gliffaes and shuimpge, thanks guys. I was asking because I saw some really nice wallpaper at a new development (Ploenchit Collina on 1317), but now I guess I'll paint 1st and think about WP again in a few years. :) Hopefully I'll have a bit more money then too. 8)
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby Mike Judd » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:06 am

I don't want to come over as a" Know All" but as one who lived long ago in post War Britain (the second not the first ?) Everybody, but everybody had wall paper on their walls, so sooner or later you had a go at it. After a while you could get quite good at it when you learnt from others who had more experience. The basics were as followed and easy to learn. Smooth walls with Plaster and Set finish ,which has no cement in it was the best and the norm in most English houses , other wise you could put on a plain paper first to cover defects etc; The other trick was to size the walls with a varnish like substance that when dry allowed you to slide the finish wall paper around to get a perfect join on the vertical edges.Then comes the hard part which is shown in all of the instruction manuals, putting on the paste and folding the lengths of paper so as to be able to pick it up , climb your step ladder and place the top in position so as to then drop the folds down slowly, where you have to align the edge first and smoothing the paper out flat with a wide brush getting rid of any bubbles. Good quality paper is O.K. but cheaper sometimes stretches. If you managed the walls in those days you could have a go at your ceilings if required, as mine did when living in one of the London Prefabs , now that is a lot harder but manageable if shown the only correct way first by any old tradesman. Paper used to come pre pasted if you wanted ,which you used to dip into a special trough full of water. Also some had a washable coating so it would last for donkey's years.
But I found one would look at some particular pattern that had been there for a while, and say I'am sick of looking at that pattern, so you then had to go through the process of wetting all the wall and scraping the old paper off before putting on some new .There were times when someone had put several layers on the wall over the years , what a mess that would be .Those were the days, sorry for going down Memory lane.!
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby fredlk » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:11 am

Mike Judd wrote:sorry for going down Memory lane.!

What would a long life be worth if there weren't those visits down Memory Lane. You 'oldies' sharing your wisdom with us 'young 'uns' is an important part of the evolution of the species.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby Tommy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:47 pm

^
Stuff that I had never experienced before. This I admit readily
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby schuimpge » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:04 pm

Never seen wall-paper on ceilings in the Netherlands.
For all I've seen, older houses had wooden floors that many times served as the ceiling of the room below.
In more high-end houses, there might be a 'false ceiling' nailed against the floorbeams of the room above, which would then be painted or stucc'd including decorative plints and patterns.
But traditional farm houses and the likes would have exposed oak floor-beams and oak floors.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby terp80 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:36 pm

fredlk wrote:
Mike Judd wrote:sorry for going down Memory lane.!

What would a long life be worth if there weren't those visits down Memory Lane. You 'oldies' sharing your wisdom with us 'young 'uns' is an important part of the evolution of the species.


Thanks Mike! Couldn't agree more with fredlk. :D
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby Mike Judd » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:54 am

Schulmpge, ! I can assure you that in the U.K. there are millions of houses with Plaster ceilings, either plaster board (Gyprock or Fibrous plaster) or in the older houses maybe plaster on wood lathes . That's where the papering came into it , when the original surface got damaged over the years that's when the plain thick paper was put on. I believe you about Dutch houses not having paper on ceilings , it's strange how houses change from one country to another, even when quite close. Mind you they even do in the U.K. from county to county with the older houses ,once you get out of the cities. But it's with the mass housing estates that were built in Britain between and after the Wars that I am mainly talking about. As far as ceilings are concerned, in Australia up to World War 2 most of the ceilings were made out of thin metal decorative panels that were then painted. Since the War though they have followed the world trend of Plaster board.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby schuimpge » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:28 am

Mike, sure that, within a distance of 5km in the border area, you see a very obvious build style changes between Holland and Germany.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby MGV12 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:44 am

Mike Judd wrote:Schulmpge, ! I can assure you that in the U.K. there are millions of houses with Plaster ceilings, either plaster board (Gyprock or Fibrous plaster) or in the older houses maybe plaster on wood lathes . That's where the papering came into it , when the original surface got damaged over the years that's when the plain thick paper was put on. I believe you about Dutch houses not having paper on ceilings , it's strange how houses change from one country to another, even when quite close. Mind you they even do in the U.K. from county to county with the older houses ,once you get out of the cities. But it's with the mass housing estates that were built in Britain between and after the Wars that I am mainly talking about. As far as ceilings are concerned, in Australia up to World War 2 most of the ceilings were made out of thin metal decorative panels that were then painted. Since the War though they have followed the world trend of Plaster board.


As you say Mike ... lath and plaster [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath_and_plaster ] was the standard wall finish in the UK ... up to at least the 1930's. Internal walls were generally studs with the lathes applied horizontally and a lime-based plaster applied ... this was mixed with horsehair which provided some strength while the lime allowed for movement in the wood behind. In most of the lower-cost housing the walls were simply whitewashed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewash. Inevitably even with lime-based plaster the movement in the walls and drying would cause them to craze and eventually break up. Then on went the lining paper to hold it all together and give a new presentable surface for emulsion or decorative wallpaper .... you could also use something like textured anaglypta instead of plain lining paper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallpaper.

Skill and knowledge were required in equal amounts back in those days ... only those who had served an apprenticeship or latterly attended a proper trade school could do the finishing work. If you didn't have skills and had not made the effort to acquire the knowledge to apply them you weren't allowed to do the work ... you were a labourer or a go-for. Very unlike much of what we see going on around us these days .... fortunately not all as some very high skill standards are evident ... if you are happy to build in the traditional ways as new skills and knowledge struggle to break through that "we've always done it this way" approach! Seems to be the only area where many Thais show fear ... when being asked to learn new things!

“Some days I am an optimistic pessimist ... other days I am a pessimistic optimist”
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby Galee » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:43 am

Only ever papered a ceiling once. never again, it was a nightmare. Because it was an old building the ceiling had sagged in the middle over the years, meaning that you were trying to paper the outside of a very large sphere. Trying to get the edges to butt up against each other was nigh on impossible.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby gliffaes » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:40 pm

MGV12 wrote:
Mike Judd wrote:Schulmpge, ! I can assure you that in the U.K. there are millions of houses with Plaster ceilings, either plaster board (Gyprock or Fibrous plaster) or in the older houses maybe plaster on wood lathes . That's where the papering came into it , when the original surface got damaged over the years that's when the plain thick paper was put on. I believe you about Dutch houses not having paper on ceilings , it's strange how houses change from one country to another, even when quite close. Mind you they even do in the U.K. from county to county with the older houses ,once you get out of the cities. But it's with the mass housing estates that were built in Britain between and after the Wars that I am mainly talking about. As far as ceilings are concerned, in Australia up to World War 2 most of the ceilings were made out of thin metal decorative panels that were then painted. Since the War though they have followed the world trend of Plaster board.


As you say Mike ... lath and plaster [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath_and_plaster ] was the standard wall finish in the UK ... up to at least the 1930's. Internal walls were generally studs with the lathes applied horizontally and a lime-based plaster applied ... this was mixed with horsehair which provided some strength while the lime allowed for movement in the wood behind. In most of the lower-cost housing the walls were simply whitewashed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewash. Inevitably even with lime-based plaster the movement in the walls and drying would cause them to craze and eventually break up. Then on went the lining paper to hold it all together and give a new presentable surface for emulsion or decorative wallpaper .... you could also use something like textured anaglypta instead of plain lining paper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallpaper.

Skill and knowledge were required in equal amounts back in those days ... only those who had served an apprenticeship or latterly attended a proper trade school could do the finishing work. If you didn't have skills and had not made the effort to acquire the knowledge to apply them you weren't allowed to do the work ... you were a labourer or a go-for. Very unlike much of what we see going on around us these days .... fortunately not all as some very high skill standards are evident ... if you are happy to build in the traditional ways as new skills and knowledge struggle to break through that "we've always done it this way" approach! Seems to be the only area where many Thais show fear ... when being asked to learn new things!

Spent 30 years doing this stuff, best ever is papering over old distemper, made easier now with special sealants that soak into the bloody stuff and stop it being dusty.
Ceilings were my favourites to do, pretty easy really , no corners or windows to go round, basically a flat wall on a bit of an angle hahahah.
Often used to quote to do a ceiling only, £120 not more than 4-5hours work usually, start at 8 be home by 1-2pm.
heres a nice tip for you, sizing walls( oh yeah sizing means mixing up a thin paste mix to soak into the walls so the paper sticks better and doesnt dry out the second it hits the walls), just get some pva a garden sprayer, thin it down like water spray it on. Paper sticks well after that providing your walls are sound and dust free to start with.
Try hanging Lincrusta ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincrusta) if you want a laugh, weighs a ton have to soak it for 30 minutes, tough as old boots though, you only put it on once thats for sure!!
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby gliffaes » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:22 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
MGV12 wrote:RR had a good experience with his wallpaper ... if I recall correctly ... but was willing to pay the price to get quality paper and competent hangers.

So hopefully his won't look "tatty" after 5-6 years

I had/have a great experience with wallpaper both in my townhouse and new house. I might add the wallpaper in the townhouse is over 15 years old and still looks great which makes the five year mark a little silly. My previous maid used to wipe it down every three months and she loved it. It certainly beats a badly painted house and looks different and adds character. Who wants to look at the same paint the whole time?
The good part is it's cheaper than paint too.
I think gliffaes has gone off his rocker.

In a country with so much sun to bleach the papers ESPECIALLY round windows I doubt very much it will look good in 15 years, joints usually get dirty and in the UK central heating used to leave a dirty patch up the walls over the radiators, what do I know though?? probably about as much as you doing tunnels having spent 30 years hanging wallpapers :lol:
Let me know when the first water makes it past the windows too and see how the paper likes that.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby schuimpge » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:53 am

Not a big fan of wallpaper. For me there's nothing as good looking as a well rendered wall with a quality paint and skirting.
I think wallpaper distracts from the furniture, paintings, other items in the room. Makes it too busy, you get distracted and turn your attention to the whole room instead of focussing on the centerpieces in a room.
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Re: Dream House Build for 1/5th the Price

Postby Mike Judd » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:47 am

Have to agree, having had and done both over the years. I think it looks a bit "Edwardian" now, and Flowery.? Only my opinion though, each to his own as they say. But I must add, how easy is it to whack a fresh coat of paint on the wall . if you get fed up with the colour, especially with all the water based paints now days.?
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