Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby elgato » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:58 pm

More pics:

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I was told, erroneously, that the price of cement was going to rise dramatically so I ordered "extra"

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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby elgato » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:31 pm

And some more - yawn:

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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:04 pm

I see that you used blocks to raise the reenforcing mesh above the concrete planks.

Did you do the same at the bottom of the footings?
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby elgato » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:03 am

All footings and mesh were raised using either bricks or pieces of block.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby sirineou » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:19 pm

in some situations it is not a good idea to use Brick and pieces of block us spacers to hold up wire mesh or rebar.
Brick and cement block will allow water to penetrate more easily than concrete and rust the metal.
In the instance of between concrete planks and cement it is ok , but not in footings, for the reason I just mentioned.
it is very easy to make cement spacers. simply spread an inch or two of cement on a piece of plywood or plastic, when it is dried a little, scope a few lines on it, (like tic,tac toe) when it dries it will brake in to small cement tile squares that are the same consistency and water permeability as the cement you will be using for your footings.
You can use those for your spacers.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby elgato » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:48 pm

I appreciate your interest, but not being an engineer or having been schooled in concrete engineering I don't see what difference it makes with the absorption of water whether I use old block pieces or new cement spacers.. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby pipoz » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:11 pm

Hi Elgato,

Can I ask why is it necessary or preferred to build the floor beams up off the ground?

Also, is the clay fill very reactive or is there another reason why Thai builders like to have space between the underside of their floor slab and the ground surface?

Regards

Phil
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:43 am

pipoz wrote:Hi Elgato,

Can I ask why is it necessary or preferred to build the floor beams up off the ground?

Also, is the clay fill very reactive or is there another reason why Thai builders like to have space between the underside of their floor slab and the ground surface?

Regards

Phil

The reasons why I have planned to have the house raised off the ground are, in no special order: less wild life (frogs snakes etc) in the house, Easier to control the termites (SWMBO doesn't like spraying poison) , easier to repair any breaks in water pipes, easier to get at any other services which are under the slab.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby sirineou » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:26 am

elgato wrote:I appreciate your interest, but not being an engineer or having been schooled in concrete engineering I don't see what difference it makes with the absorption of water whether I use old block pieces or new cement spacers.. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

I am no engineer also, but I do work in the concrete industry, so this is a subject I know a little bit about.
Spacers made from the same material as your concrete, have the same absorbency as your concrete.where bricks are made of clay and can be more absorbent than concrete, Cement blocks are even more absorbent than bricks.
Using brick or cement block spaces sandwiched between the floor concrete planks and the layer of cement you pour on top of it is no problem as the spacers are encapsulated in the cement. But if you place them on the dirt as spacers between the dirt and the rebar, they can act as wicks allowing moisture to get to the rebar . That's why , when pouring footings it is a good idea to pour a couple of inches of cement, and then place the footing rebar, that way you don't need spacers. but if you chose not to pour a couple of inches of cement first, then a concrete spacer is best , as I said in my original response they are easy to make.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby Mike Judd » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:29 am

Water penetration to the steel or even up through the slab itself is one of the reasons most slabs on the ground in western countries have a plastic sheeting put down. It is well worth the small extra cost, it first stops the soaking away of water into the ground taking cement with it, puts a polished surface finish on the bottom which with the "Forticon" plastic which stays there for years, stops any moisture from entering the slab. It's the steel in concrete that gives it it's tension strength but always needs the protection from moisture in it's life time.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby pipoz » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:05 pm

I would have thought it was mandatory or good common sense to use a plastic membrane such as Fortecon or another under any slab structure poured on the ground. My guess is that it shouldn’t cost more than TB 50 per m2, but I will check.

Fortecon normally comes in thicknesses of 0.15 up to 0.30mm (heavy duty stuff).

If it was me and pouring a slab on ground, on a reasonably level sand or earth bed fill, I would just use 0.20mm Fortecon

If I was leveling the area under the slab with gravel (a type of French drain under the slab as some do), then I would go up to Fortecon 0.30mm heavy duty as it more puncture proof

Another one is Visqueen, it’s a UK product http://www.visqueenbuilding.co.uk

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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:22 pm

pipoz wrote:I would have thought it was mandatory or good common sense to use a plastic membrane such as Fortecon or another under any slab structure poured on the ground. My guess is that it shouldn’t cost more than TB 50 per m2, but I will check.

Here it is often a case of using the product that is avalible. For example.


Image
Very neatly folded but not up the side :)

This or the heavy duty version will do the job and the cost is more like ฿15 per m2. As a % of building cost the price difference makes very little difference. The important point is that you can get it in every village or town in Thailand.
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:29 pm

sirineou wrote:I am no engineer also, but I do work in the concrete industry, so this is a subject I know a little bit about.
Spacers made from the same material as your concrete, have the same absorbency as your concrete.where bricks are made of clay and can be more absorbent than concrete, Cement blocks are even more absorbent than bricks.
Using brick or cement block spaces sandwiched between the floor concrete planks and the layer of cement you pour on top of it is no problem as the spacers are encapsulated in the cement. But if you place them on the dirt as spacers between the dirt and the rebar, they can act as wicks allowing moisture to get to the rebar . That's why , when pouring footings it is a good idea to pour a couple of inches of cement, and then place the footing rebar, that way you don't need spacers. but if you chose not to pour a couple of inches of cement first, then a concrete spacer is best , as I said in my original response they are easy to make.

A question. If you pour a base then place the rebar on it then pour the footing doesn't that allow moisture to enter from the side? As the junction between two layers of concrete permits water ingress?
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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby sirineou » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:17 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:A question. If you pour a base then place the rebar on it then pour the footing doesn't that allow moisture to enter from the side? As the junction between two layers of concrete permits water ingress?

The base is there to separate the rebar from the wet dirt, the sides will be separates from the dirt by the at least , couple of inches of pored cement , but if you need spacers on the sides to keep the rebar from touching the sides of the form or dirt, then the same rule as the bottom, applies.
you would need spacers and the spacers will need to be maid of material as or more impermeable than the concrete.

So let me recup, in the footings , since they will be buried in dirt there are a few things you need to do:
First, plastic barrier on the bottom (since it is the largest area and where moisture is most likely to collect) but if impossible plastic can be folded up the sides and on top during back fill. as was said before, plastic accomplishes many functions, it keeps water from infiltrating the concrete, it keeps the concrete from loosing it's water content while being poured, and makes the sides of the pour smooth providing less of a chance for water infiltration.
Second if spacers are used, they must be as or more water impermeable as the concrete
Third The concrete used in foundations and slabs in contact with earth needs to be waterproofed, if mixing your own add waterproofing agent to the mix,if ordering ready mix, order the waterproof version.
If you dont do all this things, it does not mean that your structure will fail, but it does mean that it has a better chance of eventually failing,
The mechanism by which it might fail is that as water impregnates the concrete and reaches the rebar, the rebar will rust and expand in size, as the rebar expands it will crack the concrete reducing it's straight, and providing further ingress of moisture. Rebar provides a lot of the straight of the concrete structure, as the rebar further deteriorates, there is always the possibility of catastrophic failure.
Some times people put gravel under the footings. I dont like that!, Gravel is good under a slab because it helps drain the area, but under the footings, it only acts as an area where water will collect and stand , keeping the footings wet.



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Re: Ban Seua Dao The House of "We'll Dispute" Kanchanaburi

Postby pipoz » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:22 pm

Hi sometimewoodworker,

I am sure I saw some in Home Pro for sale. Thailand cannot be that backward and use of a plastic membrane type (be it Fortecon or another brand, as form of damp proof membrane) is standard practice under slabs poured on ground in Europe, the West and even in the Middle East. Maybe it’s just a bit harder to find a roll of it in parts of Thailand

Yes, the primary purpose is to reduce the chance of moisture seeping from the damp ground into the concrete ground slab and yes it should be turned up at the sides of the footings, as per the diagrams attached.

Given two reasons, one that for 6-8 months of the year it rains in Thailand and therefore the upper part of the ground is primarily damp if not very wet for most of that time and the other being that Thai don’t seem to vibrate the concrete properly when they place it, then using a damp proof membrane underside of the concrete (when poured on ground) will keep the concrete more dry and is good practice.

It’s also seems to be a Thai thing that they dig a deep hole, then pour a pad footing, then cast a 1 meter long up stand neck/short column back up to the beam/underside of slab. You normally only do this if you are building on questionable fill material and are looking to found the pad footing on undisturbed material. From what I have seen, the Thais just seem tio dig it deep because it is their standard way of doing things or posibly as a precaution.

Phil
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