very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Jack&Amy » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:33 pm

Hi Mike...apologies as this is nothing to do with your build and I hope you dont mind me running this by you? I must point out I am not an expert unlike yourself..

Re.Pipoz's roof...............I am from the UK and I would have installed my foil under the battens and horizontally, as you would have done, I think?.....and I am sure Pipoz's roofing guy is doing a great job there...

Pipoz seems a sensible guy and makes decisions accordingly.........We all know black absorbs heat but I can't work out the logic of placing reflective foil directly under and touching the roof tiles, exactly where is that reflected heat supposed to go? back into the tile is my guess and back again to the foil..therefore heat tennis and I fail to see the benefit of the cost of the foil and it's installation...

At least under the battens there is about a 40mm air space but would this 40mm air gap make any difference is my question to you? Is the outlay worth it? I have read some builds on CTH claiming that a 50mm air space is a good insulator when using 2 x skins of blockwork..
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Mike Judd » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:13 pm

I would imagine it doesn't make that much difference as the heat is reflected back as it's suppose to, that's all foil will ever do. I have walked around on the new building estate outside Khon Kaen where you have all stages of construction, as soon as you get under a section of roof that has the foil ,(This is before the ceiling has been put in) you can feel the difference. I would prefer it under the battens as per western standard and horizontal ,but it still works on my roof the other way, Tiles themselves absorb a great deal of heat and it's the foil that stops it going into the roof space, whether it's touching it or not I can't see it makes much difference, only a physical test would settle that. Air trapped between two layers of foil would give you better insulation, and reflection. That's why in Oz they have that in the form of thousands of air cells between foil, it comes in various thicknesses as the price goes up of course. In the Sydney building centre they have booths of different types of insulation, usually with a hot globe in a space where you put your hand on the other side of the insulation to feel the difference against putting your hand in a similar space without insulation. It's a pretty convincing demo. A sealed cavity between two skins of block work is different to a roof though, that is relying on the 50m.m. or what ever to insulate the wall.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:14 pm

Jack&Amy wrote:Pipoz seems a sensible guy and makes decisions accordingly.........We all know black absorbs heat but I can't work out the logic of placing reflective foil directly under and touching the roof tiles, exactly where is that reflected heat supposed to go? back into the tile is my guess and back again to the foil..therefore heat tennis and I fail to see the benefit of the cost of the foil and it's installation...


It isn't used as reflective foil.

You have missed the main point about foil used close to the roofing material. It's main point is as a radiant barrier, which is why some types have only 1 shiny face, not as a reflective barrier.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Jack&Amy » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:54 am

So, I googled 'radiant barrier ' and here is what I found.......(courtesy of Wikipedia )

"For installing a radiant barrier under a metal or tile roof, the radiant barrier may be applied directly over the roof sheathing. Then furring strips (1x4s) are applied over the radiant barrier before the metal or tile roof is applied. The furring strips ensure that the radiant barrier faces into a sufficient air space. If an air space is not present or is too small, heat may be able to conduct through the radiant barrier. Since the metal in the radiant barrier is highly conductive, the heat transfer would all be through conduction and the heat would not be blocked. According to the US Department of Energy, “Reflective insulation and radiant barrier products must have an air space adjacent to the reflective material to be effective.”[

So, although I missed the point, actually an air space is required for the foil and not suited for direct contact with the tile...or maybe I am still missing the point?

I know how I would install the foil and thats the most important thing..... :D
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:13 am

Jack&Amy wrote:So, although I missed the point, actually an air space is required for the foil and not suited for direct contact with the tile...or maybe I am still missing the point?

If you missed the point, so did I. What is the point of a radiant barrier with no air gap, which turns the radiant barrier into a conductor.......and if you have a metal frame roof it's nearly pointless anyway as the heat will conduct to the columns from the metal frame.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Jack&Amy » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:40 am

RR......my original observation on Pipoz's roof was that the foil was laid vertically and over the battens....Here in the south of Thailand, although I have not inspected every roof, I have seen it laid horizontally and under the battens....I'm just trying to establish the correct way to install the foil and whether or not the costs involved are actually worth the outlay....
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:54 am

Jack&Amy wrote:RR......my original observation on Pipoz's roof was that the foil was laid vertically and over the battens....Here in the south of Thailand, although I have not inspected every roof, I have seen it laid horizontally and under the battens....I'm just trying to establish the correct way to install the foil and whether or not the costs involved are actually worth the outlay....

Good luck on that one, it's the reason I used Colorbond with factory foam already in place.
One of the members (Gliffaes) actually carried my ladder upstairs and tested the heat coming through the roof and insulation and said "Just warm" or something similar which I thought was okay as I have a 1 metre air gap between the insulated roof and the insulated ceiling and have air circulating inside the ceiling.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:14 am

Jack&Amy wrote:So, I googled 'radiant barrier ' and here is what I found.......(courtesy of Wikipedia )

"For installing a radiant barrier under a metal or tile roof, the radiant barrier may be applied directly over the roof sheathing. Then furring strips (1x4s) are applied over the radiant barrier before the metal or tile roof is applied. The furring strips ensure that the radiant barrier faces into a sufficient air space. If an air space is not present or is too small, heat may be able to conduct through the radiant barrier. Since the metal in the radiant barrier is highly conductive, the heat transfer would all be through conduction and the heat would not be blocked. According to the US Department of Energy, “Reflective insulation and radiant barrier products must have an air space adjacent to the reflective material to be effective.”[

So, although I missed the point, actually an air space is required for the foil and not suited for direct contact with the tile...or maybe I am still missing the point?

I know how I would install the foil and thats the most important thing..... :D


Well yes you are quoting from a document that is talking about a totally different roofing method, installed on top of a roof sheathing (that means it is being used as a REFLECTIVE barrier NOT as a RADIANT barrier) that is almost never used in Thailand, and is confusing reflective and radiant methods and places to use them

Nobody has ever suggested that the RADIATING surface of the radiant barrier would work without an air space. However does NOT have to be the case for the reverse side, it may be better but it will still work.

Nobody has suggested that a film used as a reflective barrier should not have an air gap.

The RADIANT barrier can get hot and it will still work because it RADIATES poorly (RR 5%) sure if it is cooler it will be better, but again nobody ever said it wouldn't.


Roger Ramjet wrote:
Jack&Amy wrote:So, although I missed the point, actually an air space is required for the foil and not suited for direct contact with the tile...or maybe I am still missing the point?

If you missed the point, so did I. What is the point of a radiant barrier with no air gap, which turns the radiant barrier into a conductor.......and if you have a metal frame roof it's nearly pointless anyway as the heat will conduct to the columns from the metal frame.

You sure did.

1)The major heat gain is by radiation not conduction.
2)The essential air gap is on the side that radiates.
3)With the radiant barrier in place reducing the heat gain by radiation, of course the major source will be by conduction, BUT it will be a small fraction of the heat gain without the radiant barrier. There is no way that (as you suggest) it will become the same as without the radiant barrier.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:32 am

Jack&Amy wrote:RR......my original observation on Pipoz's roof was that the foil was laid vertically and over the battens....Here in the south of Thailand, although I have not inspected every roof, I have seen it laid horizontally and under the battens....I'm just trying to establish the correct way to install the foil and whether or not the costs involved are actually worth the outlay....

The cost is low the effect is high, I have seen a drop of 24 degrees C with a purely radiant barrier.

On a new build get the combined reflective and radiant barrier (it is double the price or more but still cheap) and have an air space on both sides, install near the roof covering. The reflective side will degrade over time as it gets dirty, the radiant side will probably not as it faces down.

If you get the combined reflective and radiant barrier. It doesn't matter which way is up as both sides are the same.

Prices for the combined material are from about ฿2,200 each AFIR they are 72metres long and 2.2 wide
The single sided one is about ฿1,000 same length and width.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Jack&Amy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:25 pm

and the correct method of installation is ??????????
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:39 pm

Jack&Amy wrote:and the correct method of installation is ??????????


And the answer is in my post above :roll: :roll:

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
On a new build get the combined reflective and radiant barrier (it is double the price or more but still cheap) and have an air space on both sides, install near the roof covering. The reflective side will degrade over time as it gets dirty, the radiant side will probably not as it faces down.

If you get the combined reflective and radiant barrier. It doesn't matter which way is up as both sides are the same.
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby pipoz » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:48 pm

Hi Mike,

Started placing the DMP, under the internal wall skin

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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Mike Judd » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:10 pm

Good stuff ! not expensive but will stop any slight dampness creeping up and pushing the paint off your walls which you will often see if you take the time to look in lots of Thai houses. How much did those proper concrete blocks cost each and where,? They are just the job for retaining walls with the steel coming up from the foundations every second hole and horizontal bars tied to them, you then use a mix with small stones to avoid voids when filling. I did find a place in Khon Kaen proper but they wanted 6 times the price of the 75m.m. ones, bloody stupid as there is only a bit extra material in the width at the ends and middle.I suppose in time they will get the message as there would be a market for them. They make them by the Billion here in Oz ,all the underground car parks in Apartments and offices are made with them. :? :? :?
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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby pipoz » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:04 pm

Mike Judd wrote:Good stuff ! not expensive but will stop any slight dampness creeping up and pushing the paint off your walls which you will often see if you take the time to look in lots of Thai houses. How much did those proper concrete blocks cost each and where,? They are just the job for retaining walls with the steel coming up from the foundations every second hole and horizontal bars tied to them, you then use a mix with small stones to avoid voids when filling. I did find a place in Khon Kaen proper but they wanted 6 times the price of the 75m.m. ones, bloody stupid as there is only a bit extra material in the width at the ends and middle.I suppose in time they will get the message as there would be a market for them. They make them by the Billion here in Oz ,all the underground car parks in Apartments and offices are made with them. :? :? :?


On the part where the outer skin (external wall) will sit, I plan to first paint on the Flintcote, then lay another strip of the Bitumen DMP over the top of the Flintcote, overlapping it some 30 mm on top of the already laid DMP, and then dress it down the vertical concrete slab face like a small flashing, about 20 mm.

Plus I bought them and instructed them to use a water proof additive into the mortar for the first three courses of block work

This should see out my lifetime

The concrete super blocks cost me TB 30 each at the local hardware shop. So the 1700 No that I bought it was TB 51,000 delivered and properly unloaded where I wanted then. Theses ones are strong and don't break easily like others. Plus I bought a metal/tungsten cutting blade for my angle grinder to cut out the slots. They appear to be properly formed (nice square edges), have a "V" in the op to run the reinforcement bar through horizontally and look reasonably well vibrated. They are as good I have seen around Thailand in y travels

As, i said, I just went up to the local guy a few kms away, in Ban Chan, (as I use him use most of the time because he speaks and understand English excellent, seems to know about items when I mention the Oz name of it and also delivers same day). I am sure that if I looked around I could probably find them for TB 28 each elsewhere, but prefer to pay more just to be able to speak to someone who understands and knows his building products. Plus his wife speaks English and she is not too shabby.

When I priced the 75 mm blocks at the local hardware place (and they the 75 mm, seemed softer), he wanted TB 12 each for the 75 mm concrete blocks and TB 30 each for the 150 mm wide concrete super block, as shown in the photo. So just over twice the price of a 75 mm block. Too me OK.

This guy has never tried to stitch me up, over the past two years

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Re: very slow build between Kosumpisi and Khonkaen

Postby Mike Judd » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:50 am

Hi Guys, Just to let any one who is around the area know, that I am at my land No 74 just past the village Non Meaung, Welcome any visiters that speak English, :D :D
Cheers Mike. Phone 0981856436
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