The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:39 pm

This article explains why the Chinese liberation army/navy/air force is just not quite ready to engage the US forces around the Spratly Islands and why the US is not all that worried at the moment. Rather like having an army with thousands of generals and no troops, except conscripts and a few elite units.
I wonder what the Thai army will use the new Chinese tanks they've just bought for millions, perhaps they're going to put them aboard their carrier in lieu of aircraft. The tanks can't be used in the south as their armour is incapable of stopping much and to think they turned up the chance at getting Leopard tanks from the Germans to get cheap Chinese crap........but think of the tea money involved.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/securit ... militaries
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... china-ties
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:38 pm

Asean has finally flexed its power with a warning to the Chinese......talk about a loss of face.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/10 ... ea-dispute
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:50 am

Anyone who has been following the Chinese invasion of the Spratly Islands and the subsequent ICJ rulings that they didn't/don't belong to China, never have and never will (unless there is a war and China win), will be interested to note that way before the Chinese lade claim to them and as far back as the Bronze age, Thailand were making the pots that the Chinese claim were theirs (on the reefs) and used by their fishermen in the 1300s, or so they claimed in the International Court of Justice. When it was proven the pots came from Thailand in the Bronze Age the Chinese refused to accept the findings of the ICJ and also refused to abide by the UN's resolution that said the Chinese had no legitimate claim over the islands and reefs as other countries had been on the reefs in the Bronze Age, including Thailand.
Here is the story of the discovery of the Thai pots from the Bronze Age and the village where they were found and made, which is now a UNESCO World Heritage site.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... e-age-pots
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby MGV12 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:15 pm

China has criticised what it called a "dangerous" Japanese jet scramble over disputed islands in the East China sea.

90289262_gettyimages-51755125.jpg


The Ministry of National Defence said on Monday that the Japanese jets had "lit up" the Chinese fighters with their fire-control radar.
A senior official in Japan previously confirmed the scramble took place, but denied the incident was dangerous.
Japan and China both claim ownership of islands in the area known respectively as the Senkaku or Diaoyu islands.
The Chinese defence ministry said in a short statement on its website that two Chinese Su-30 fighter jets were met with "provocative actions" from a pair of Japanese F-15 jets in the air defence identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea on 17 June.
It said that the Chinese jets were on a routine patrol when they were approached "provocatively" and at high speed by two Japanese planes, who "even went so far as to start "lighting up" the Chinese planes with their fire-control radar."
The statement said the Chinese jets responded "decisively", without going into further details of how, and that the Japanese jets deployed an infrared decoy projectile before flying away.
Prior to the release of the Chinese statement, the Japanese press reported that Japan's deputy chief cabinet secretary confirmed that a scramble had taken place but denied that either side had acted aggressively.
This contradicted remarks that had been made by a retired Japanese air force official, who had alleged that the Chinese fighters had made a threatening manoeuvre towards the Japanese plane.
Japan's top military commander recently revealed that Japanese emergency scrambles to counter Chinese jets had almost doubled over the past three months.
The BBC has contacted the Japanese Defence Ministry in the light of the new Chinese allegations, but has yet to receive a reply.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36710808
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:00 pm

China has lost to the Philippines at the ICJ tribunal hearing the complaint from the Philippines.
Full story here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/10 ... ign-rights
There's many problems with this ruling, it destroys ASEAN, it makes Laos and Cambodia look stupid for siding with the Chinese and it means the Chinese cannot suddenly lob up on your doorstep, start building islands over the top of reefs and claim they are theirs by sovereign right because their fishermen used to use the non-existent islands when they were fishing there 30 years ago.
The Chinese refuse to abide by the ruling even though they are part of the UN. Perhaps taking their permanent seat on the security council away might change their mind, but I doubt it. Another "Great leap backwards" by China.
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby MGV12 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:11 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:China has lost to the Philippines at the ICJ tribunal hearing the complaint from the Philippines.
Full story here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/10 ... ign-rights
There's many problems with this ruling, it destroys ASEAN, it makes Laos and Cambodia look stupid for siding with the Chinese and it means the Chinese cannot suddenly lob up on your doorstep, start building islands over the top of reefs and claim they are theirs by sovereign right because their fishermen used to use the non-existent islands when they were fishing there 30 years ago.
The Chinese refuse to abide by the ruling even though they are part of the UN. Perhaps taking their permanent seat on the security council away might change their mind, but I doubt it. Another "Great leap backwards" by China.


Of course China will not give up on any of their 'infiltration's' ... not today ... not tomorrow ... never.

Unless of course the unlikely - implausible - unthinkable happen ... cue President Drumpf!!!!

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby pipoz » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:China has lost to the Philippines at the ICJ tribunal hearing the complaint from the Philippines.
Full story here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/10 ... ign-rights
There's many problems with this ruling, it destroys ASEAN, it makes Laos and Cambodia look stupid for siding with the Chinese and it means the Chinese cannot suddenly lob up on your doorstep, start building islands over the top of reefs and claim they are theirs by sovereign right because their fishermen used to use the non-existent islands when they were fishing there 30 years ago.
The Chinese refuse to abide by the ruling even though they are part of the UN. Perhaps taking their permanent seat on the security council away might change their mind, but I doubt it. Another "Great leap backwards" by China.



I doubt China or others, take any real notice of what the International Court of Justice says or rules on.

As for taking away China's seat on the Security Council of the UN, if China didn't veto that suggestion, then Russia certain would. Just think back to how many time the US, used their power of veto whenever a resolution was put forward that they didn't like, such as all those against Israel. Same with Russia, France and UK. They all abuse their power of Veto, when it suits their politics. So, I think China will retain its seat on the UN Security Council without any real problem even, if they ignore the ICJ, which they will.

US and China rattle their sabers against each other in the media/press, more so to placate their respective lackeys, such as the US-Philippines. But deep down they (US & China) both know that they both need to cooperate with each other on much bigger issues. So like always they (US& China) will just come to some mutual arrangement behind the scenes, but still make noises against each other just to keep others happy.

Its is not as though the Philippines is a global power (militarily or commercially) and or are a major trading partner with the US.

10 years from now you will look back on it and the Spratly Islands will be a the "Spratly Continent" with the new Xi Jinping Airport planted on it

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:01 pm

Pipoz,
This is not just about the Philippines. Nor does it just effect the Philippines. This about the busiest shipping channel in the world that carries over 60% of the worlds' goods. It is also about air flight by commercial airliners. China wishes total control over both those corridors, they wish to say which vessels can navigate international waters and which airlines can fly in international airspace. As a side they want the fishing grounds and the mineral wealth as well, but their primary aim is ruling the sea and air. Then they will demand each and every aircraft must have clearance to fly on those routes and each ship will have to pass inspection at sea or be turned back.
Their primary aim is to isolate Taiwan, their secondary aim is to dictate who can and who can't use the shipping lanes in international waters. It has been coming for a long time, the US should have put a stop to it 30 years ago, but the China watchers all said it was just beating the drum by China and China would eventually stop at some point.
Meanwhile Laos, a land locked country has been forced to vote for China in ASEAN, along with Cambodia because both have left themselves wide open to blackmail. Thailand will be next because they owe China for submarines and the new slow speed train.
Other countries such as Australia have stopped the Chinese govt from buying huge parcels of Australian land in holding companies names. China knows Russia will support her because of NATO, which Russia is very wary of. Russia is not the Russia of old, they have limited supplies and resources now. Their Air Force may have some of the best fighters in the world, but they don't have the resources for an all out war. China is worried that India is on her doorstep and that ASEAN countries are as competitive, if not more so and companies are leaving China and China is a mess with massive rampart corruption at the highest level.
There's a lot more going on than you think.
I can tell you this, China is just bluster in regards to it's military power. Their engines in their best jets last just 30 hours before needing a complete overhaul, despite the fact that Russia have sold them their best jet designs. If you take about an hour and look at Youtube there is a segment dedicated to the Chinese military might (or failures). They are miles behind in technology, their products are substandard unless they have international partners.
China is just stupid enough to try and start something with the US or a US ally and if she does there will be no "islands" left.
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby pipoz » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:16 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:Pipoz,
This is not just about the Philippines. Nor does it just effect the Philippines. This about the busiest shipping channel in the world that carries over 60% of the worlds' goods. It is also about air flight by commercial airliners. China wishes total control over both those corridors, they wish to say which vessels can navigate international waters and which airlines can fly in international airspace. As a side they want the fishing grounds and the mineral wealth as well, but their primary aim is ruling the sea and air. Then they will demand each and every aircraft must have clearance to fly on those routes and each ship will have to pass inspection at sea or be turned back.
Their primary aim is to isolate Taiwan, their secondary aim is to dictate who can and who can't use the shipping lanes in international waters. It has been coming for a long time, the US should have put a stop to it 30 years ago, but the China watchers all said it was just beating the drum by China and China would eventually stop at some point.
Meanwhile Laos, a land locked country has been forced to vote for China in ASEAN, along with Cambodia because both have left themselves wide open to blackmail. Thailand will be next because they owe China for submarines and the new slow speed train.
Other countries such as Australia have stopped the Chinese govt from buying huge parcels of Australian land in holding companies names. China knows Russia will support her because of NATO, which Russia is very wary of. Russia is not the Russia of old, they have limited supplies and resources now. Their Air Force may have some of the best fighters in the world, but they don't have the resources for an all out war. China is worried that India is on her doorstep and that ASEAN countries are as competitive, if not more so and companies are leaving China and China is a mess with massive rampart corruption at the highest level.
There's a lot more going on than you think.
I can tell you this, China is just bluster in regards to it's military power. Their engines in their best jets last just 30 hours before needing a complete overhaul, despite the fact that Russia have sold them their best jet designs. If you take about an hour and look at Youtube there is a segment dedicated to the Chinese military might (or failures). They are miles behind in technology, their products are substandard unless they have international partners.
China is just stupid enough to try and start something with the US or a US ally and if she does there will be no "islands" left.


Roger, I am well aware that it is not just about the Philippines and also have a grasp of what China's motives or reasoning, may be.' But lets be realists, the Chinese approach to this issue is no different to how they approach their business dealings, established over years of practice, with a lot of patience and more often that not, successful. Not only shipping lanes but China is also after all of the resources under and in the South China Seas all to themselves, and China will get, what China wants

As for the military strength of the three Powers, it wont come into play on this issue (the Islands). They may taunt or threaten one another in some veiled way, but neither will ever fire a shot over these islands. All piss and wind, certainly from the US side and few have the commercial stomach these days for real fight. If China did start anything with the US, it would more than likely come from a single foolish action of one of their Captains, a bit like the South Koreans vs the North Koreans.

Either way the outcome will be the same, China well build up their land structures/islands in the South China Seas with little resistance from others

Time will tell Roger and the Chinese will have an Airport on one of these islands in less than 3 years, part of their strategy pushing the US back from their coastline

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:46 am

Pipoz,
I'm not going to quote back to you what you first said and what you then said, because both are totally different and contradictory.
If the US stopped 90% of its trade with China, then China would become the insignificant "power" it was 20 years ago: And don't believe there is a difference between Clinton or "Drumpf" as MGV12 likes to call him. Even the Chinese admit openly that trying to "work" with Clinton is "difficult" and at times "impossible".
I recall history and having read about Mao, (I posted the references earlier) the Chinese Communist leadership, such as it is, walks the same blinkered walk as Mao did. Just because they can execute their own people with impunity doesn't mean they have unlimited power and can dictate terms. Look at who they are dictating to, Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam. Vietnam is not afraid, they took on the Yanks and beat them at their own game thanks to the CIA and stupid policy. But to take on the US, India or even Taiwan would be suicide, and don't forget Japan, where China have no clout at all.
You can only push the big boys on the block for a little while and then they push back, so China is staying with the little guys and destroying ASEAN in the process.
As far as them having an air strip on the "islands" they have one already and they have fighters there as well, but the fighters never left their new base when the US sent its warships to sit off the "islands" and the Japanese even gave them fair warning they would be shot down if they encroached on their exclusion zone. And the Chinese fled with tail between legs when they got "locked-on" by Japanese (US) fighters, that little deedle deedle deedle in their helmets and red flashing lights on their instrument panels meant they were about to be blown out of the sky by better class fighters and pilots.
You are right with one point, China will do something stupid or one of its many Captains will because they have been indoctrinated to do so. Too much loss of face will start a very short sharp engagement that will see China without its "islands", fighters and no face left. It will be similar to the Falklands, but without the loss of ground forces, except by the Chinese on the "islands". And who are they going to complain to? The UN. Ha.
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:35 am

I think people should read a summary of the verdict.

The Tribunal additionally handed down significant rulings that none of the disputed maritime features in the Spratly Islands in their natural condition, including Scarborough Shoal, Gaven Reef and Fiery Cross Reef are to be equated with islands for the purposes of the law of the sea and, as a result, do not generate entitlements to a 200 mile exclusive economic zone or continental shelf. In doing so the Tribunal confirmed that Mischief Reef and Second Thomas Shoal - which has in recent years been the scene of a standoff between the Philippines military and Chinese government vessels - are within the Philippines maritime domain and not that of China.

When turning to China's controversial land reclamation and island building activities in the South China Sea, the Tribunal found these activities had caused irreparable harm to the coral reef ecosystem and breached obligations under six provisions of the Convention. In the case of these activities at Mischief Reef, the Tribunal directly found that China had breached Articles 60 and 80 of the Convention by undertaking land reclamation without the authorisation of the Philippines and in violation of Articles 60 and 80 of the Convention.

The fact that the tribunal has said that China cannot claim reefs is significant, so is the fact that China's claim lay in a 1945/6 map drawn up by them that the tribunal found to have no validity at all.
Full story here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-13/r ... ed/7624120
There is also another story on the abc that quotes Senator Conroy as saying Australia has not sent ships to the area, because it was not in the estimates presented to his committee. Senator Conroy needs to talk with the RAAF who were requested (by the US) and obliged by sending its Orion aircraft over the disputed reefs. Me thinks the Foreign Minister is far more trustworthy than Senator Conroy and he needs to pull his head out of his arse.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-13/c ... ea/7623712
I'm not going to comment on the unloaded rifles in the photo, nor the fact the Chinese have no combat webbing, nor the fact half are facing the wrong way with their rifles.....They look like under-trained national servicemen press ganged into the job.
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby pipoz » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:02 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:Pipoz,
I'm not going to quote back to you what you first said and what you then said, because both are totally different and contradictory.
If the US stopped 90% of its trade with China, then China would become the insignificant "power" it was 20 years ago: And don't believe there is a difference between Clinton or "Drumpf" as MGV12 likes to call him. Even the Chinese admit openly that trying to "work" with Clinton is "difficult" and at times "impossible".
I recall history and having read about Mao, (I posted the references earlier) the Chinese Communist leadership, such as it is, walks the same blinkered walk as Mao did. Just because they can execute their own people with impunity doesn't mean they have unlimited power and can dictate terms. Look at who they are dictating to, Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam. Vietnam is not afraid, they took on the Yanks and beat them at their own game thanks to the CIA and stupid policy. But to take on the US, India or even Taiwan would be suicide, and don't forget Japan, where China have no clout at all.
You can only push the big boys on the block for a little while and then they push back, so China is staying with the little guys and destroying ASEAN in the process.
As far as them having an air strip on the "islands" they have one already and they have fighters there as well, but the fighters never left their new base when the US sent its warships to sit off the "islands" and the Japanese even gave them fair warning they would be shot down if they encroached on their exclusion zone. And the Chinese fled with tail between legs when they got "locked-on" by Japanese (US) fighters, that little deedle deedle deedle in their helmets and red flashing lights on their instrument panels meant they were about to be blown out of the sky by better class fighters and pilots.
You are right with one point, China will do something stupid or one of its many Captains will because they have been indoctrinated to do so. Too much loss of face will start a very short sharp engagement that will see China without its "islands", fighters and no face left. It will be similar to the Falklands, but without the loss of ground forces, except by the Chinese on the "islands". And who are they going to complain to? The UN. Ha.


Roger the first post was an response to the ICJ ruling and what I thought its impact if any, would be on China. The second post was simply a partial response to your following post, so yes they are and would be different responses, but not contradictory as you assert.

It is pointless trying to have any form of discussion with you, as all you seem to do, is turn any form of discussion into an argument about Roger always being right. Why not try keeping your posts more civil, without insults. Then try re-reading your own posts and some of your illogical statements.

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby MGV12 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:32 pm

Just watched a report on BBC World News that China is now claiming that they are developing the area for the benefit of all.

After South China Sea Ruling, Beijing Unveils New Guided-Missile Destroyer

On the same day that the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague ruled against China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea, Beijing has commissioned its fourth guided-missile destroyer.

The latest 052D Yinchuan destroyer was commissioned at a naval port in Sanya, in the Hainan province. Roughly 150 meters long with a 20-meter beam, the ship is one of China’s most sophisticated vessels.

Equipped with advanced weapons systems, the Yinchuan is capable of aerial defense, antisubmarine operations, and anti-sea missions.

According to Chinese military expert Cao Weidong, the new ship can outperform South Korea’s Sejong the Great-class destroyers, Japan’s Atago-class destroyers, and the US Navy’s Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.

The unveiling comes directly after the Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled against Beijing in its dispute over territorial claims in the South China Sea.

http://sputniknews.com/asia/20160713/10 ... ioned.html

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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:47 pm

MGV12 wrote:The unveiling comes directly after the Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled against Beijing in its dispute over territorial claims in the South China Sea.

I just had a quick peek at Wiki and it was due for unveiling anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer
It can now join it's sister ships (4) and go up against the 94 America has....without even mentioning the USS Zumwalt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Zumwalt and her two sister ships soon to be fitted and ready for sea trials.
As for being better than the three types of destroyers mentioned (US, Japanese and Korean) I have no idea, but Wiki claims it is comparable to them.
As for the fact China claims it can detect the F35 fighter with its radar, what they don't say is that the F35 would have already launched its missiles before it was detected and I don't think the Chinese would be worrying about the F35 by that time with anti ship missiles screaming at them.
Wiki claims it will go to Fleet North, so it won't be anywhere near the Spratly islands (reefs).
Just China beating her chest and doing the big bully act after getting a bloody nose.
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Re: The Spratly Islands and other Chinese infiltrations

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:00 pm

And now China's true colours emerge: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-13/c ... ng/7625114
Will China shoot down a passenger airline just to prove a point or will it sink a ship?
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