Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:15 am

Geordie,
I am currently sitting here reading the trash published by the English language newspapers. It appears the whole of Thailand is like a dysfunctional family.
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby MGV12 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:47 am

geordie wrote:I get the feeling BK bill is upcountry somewhere right now with a smile on his face just when Bankok could use a major plumbing overhaul


I had lunch with him at the weekend and he sure did have a big smile on his face :D

“Some days I am an optimistic pessimist ... other days I am a pessimistic optimist”
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:57 am

''Smith Dharmasoraoja, a former director general of the Department of Meteorology, has spoken in recent days of the flooding crisis as a reflection of the country’s flawed approach to water management. There is a growing understanding in Thailand that such long-term factors as the degradation of watersheds and water catchment areas, urban sprawl and industrialization and an inflexible water bureaucracy with little idea of how best to manage its dams explain the current disaster far more than do heavy rains in recent months.''
?
Guess that is why it is also flooding along the Irrawaddy in Myanmar also? Is really amasing how far reaching the effects of Thailand's 'inflexible water bureacuracracy'' can extend it's self. Or maybe is just a wacko socialist website?
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:51 am

Otis,
Perhaps one should explore why there are seven different departments that control "flooding" or water management in Thailand, then ask why they are all dysfunctional.... no leaders...all appointed by politicians.... and none promoted on ability
I notice in your quote of Smith you left out the part where he named some of the guilty.... EGAT, Irrigation Dept and BMA and the reasons why they refused to let water go from the two major dams for months....until they overflowed... and who actually controlled those departments..... and for how long they knew about the worsening situation.
I posted the Australian National University (ANU) site so people might get some insight into how dysfunctional things are..
If there was one person appointed to the committee that looks into this mess, who I would have confidence in not covering things up, it would be Smith.
I really must applaud the Thai army though.... they just happened to find another 10,000 soldiers, boats, and trucks in the last 6 hours to protect Bangkok.... I wonder where they came from.... no I don't, they were here in Bangkok the whole time, sitting on their fat arses doing nothing because the army works for themselves, not the people. Bah, humbug!
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:25 am

speaking on behalf of the civil engineer's profession- as my speciality of study was environmental- including 3 courses in hydrology- my practice & licence is chem e. As relates to energy but in defence of the civil guys-
the prior year it is reported dams ran dry during dry season- hey up here my hand dug went dry- and it is well known fact was very dry dry season. So were it my call on dam levels for this year- to fill or not to fill early- hell yes all the way- as much & as soon as possible- or risk be accused for deriliction, neglect, of duty to utilize the dam resources available. So that's the dam story.
Now for the rest of the story...
The beavers' lot is to make his best guess what the mother nature will do- not an easy guess but our best guess is same ole same ole... When a better pattern shows it self it is still same ole same ole- & yepper sometimes u will get thown off the horse. So move to a new rodeo.
So next year what would our readers say- fill? or no fill?; it's a no frills game- if u fill & it floods again- dam
if u no fill and is dought- dam
my guess 2012- no fill- policico correct decision
my guess 2012- drought next year dam! Whinners will be a winchin so let em atie up now-
dammed if u do & dam if u dont.
Doubt few will venture a guess but in 400days can look back 2c
remember u r dam site better off with a dam than without a dam unless it's a bad dam which can be worse that no dam so the moral of the story is we are all dammed at the end.
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:59 am

Otis,
You missed the whole point of what I said... and also what you said earlier; it's about responsibility. If I were in charge of any department and became even remotely responsible for causing so much grief through my incompetence, I would resign in shame.
As far as last year being a drought, I suggest you read the site I posted.
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:13 pm

resign? Maybe off to the next roa-day-o
my second course in hydrology the prof. illustrate a story- about planning n Wisconson where civil dept underestimated population grouth- result: system not meet demand- was massive overflow and under supply- he explain -
this the beaver's lot in life- one articulate student ask- so what he do? Prof's reply- the beaver's lot is like bull riding sometimes u get tossed off so just gotta, stand up dust off ur resume and go to the next bull ride.
Poor beaver's lot, is use best educated guess; but there will be times beaver's house or his whole dam gets washed downstream. So poor beaver is dammed when he does and dam if he do not- the poor maligned and oft hounded beaver... Problem is too many armchair beavers.

What say ur beavers about last year's grand aussy floods- guess they were too busy pontificating about thailand to prevent the massive aussy floods of last year eh?
.
Any takers on my survey? Predict specific amount for next year's rainfall for the river basin in question? You got my prediction & result of outcome. The basis of which i detail, if so requested; after 3 other posters place their bets.
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby geordie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:30 pm

I am not a weather guru hydrologist or politician However surely someone would know that the dams are at capacity there surely should have been calculations done at the building of the dam about maximum runoff permissible without causing flooding downstream
I am not talking about maximum runoff in the dry season but in a worst case scenario =full dams full rivers full canals and rain ? There surely is a benchmark that when reached alarms start ringing and saying dump some water ?? Even if the runoff left the dam with a weeks capacity at an average rainfall or a months capacity for an average rainfall they could have allowed some of it through But the dam,s have no control over what was happening downstream so the surplus of rain there blocking their route of escape what do they do?? add to it by dumping more water to already rain soaked valleys and rivers or hold on and hope as long as possible that the rains will ease up allowing them to dump without causing more problems Then you add to the risk by holding more water in the dam you start putting the dam at risk of collapse so there comes a point of getting rid of the water whatever rain or no rain it has to go so the dam gets the blame when in reality all they have done is delay the inevetible that water would have gone downstream anyway caught up with the massive rains
it was always going to cause flooding to some degree the fact that it was ""interfered with""
has caused all sort,s to come out of the woodwork rattling sabres and demanding heads ?
The debate really has to be what can be done to avert this happening again I think malaysia or singapore have a tunnel which runs under a city and is a double deck motorway in the dry season but doubles up as a flood relief tunnel to avoid flooding / London is in danger but many years ago a huge concrete wall was built along the Thames with a massive barrier to control the north sea coming in something could be done but as ever too little too late the blessing here is so far there has been little loss of life Whats going to be of interest is how they deal with the problem afterwards to avoid it happening again its laughable that now BKK is at risk the ballon has gone up yet how many others how many acres have suffered this for years
my comments may be wrong but never deliberately
If it aint broke, dont fix it
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:13 pm

Geordie,
In answer to your question 7 different departments knew what was happening as far back as March/April of this year, as they are all linked by the same computer... disaster prevention and flood mitigation... but all must have listened to Otis's professor talking about American beavers and 6 of the 7 ignored or disregarded the warnings and blithely carried on slowly releasing water.... see the charts at the ANU New Mandala website... the fact that these departments were controlled by the same political party in both governments (I won't name it) doesn't auger well for Thailand, especially as their leader is an ex prime minister. The fact that they all knew the monsoons were coming, as they do every year for at least three months, doesn't sit well with their flood management plans in the least.
And then when you consider the fact that certain areas were under protection (Bangkok) and a certain person refused to cooperate when things became desperate and open the existing canals gates, you end-up with a dysfunctional country controlled by bickering children whose only aim is to beat the opposing political party into the ground. It's childish and petty and the people involved deserve to be bought to book, which we all know won't happen.

Otis,
As far as the Australian floods are concerned, which are you referring to? The ones in Queensland, Victoria or Northern Territory?
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Re: Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby geordie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:59 pm

Seriously do you think anyone other than some bloke in phetchabum who forgot to close a sluice gate will take the blame Incompetance played a role but how bad would it have been left to nature the end results i feel would have been as bad and BKK would have had it share weeks ago all thats happend is they have delayed things but all these sandbag walls and dykes they have built will cost them dearly as once the water is in there it cannot escape and still the rains come ??you cannot alter a simple fact water runs down hill and if you live at the bottom of the hill you are f"£%ked unless you are prepared BKK blocking the water in (or out)
has compounded the problem and now is the payback but given the lack of concern for the hundreds of thousands they have put under water already i think little sympathy will be recieved when they do get it ; if ever it was aniylised properly from the source =rain fell on chaing mai -- to hitting the sea you will probably find a chain of people like the guy in phechabum who were not prepared to sacrifice their own popularity by doing what was required of them flooding their local area to slow things down ; as ever it seems too little too late but i supose its a hard choice to see you own life disapear under water to save a complete stranger in BKK who as far as you are concerned is having a great life anyway lessons will be learned from this and promptly forgotton the same thing could happen again next year all you can do is be a bit more prepared personally to protect you and your familly
because no one else will
They will be to busy building dykes around the industrial estates and of course they will find a way of extending that to the moo baan where they live (the politicians)
And next time it will be the farmers and the poor who will cop it again
my comments may be wrong but never deliberately
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Re: Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:03 am

interesting article about the strange weather patterns now in play:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-205471 ... areas.html

of course the mandella libertine's will likely find a politico angle to the NY snow. - all the while ignoring their ineptitude at preventing the recent massive flood to recently hit aussy.
But hey, maybe it's political ineptitude from thailand striking up a batch of aussey floods?
As for the new orleans floods, the possibility was well known. But no one wanted to spend the money to shore up the defences of a city sitting 2m below sealevel.
On a usa national level i would object spending more money on a sinking city. No objection to a relocation project. Simple, usa has lots of land further up river. Start spending on a sinker and is open end project. No objection either if new orlean wish take responsibility for they own fate.
Major Cities on rivers r of a bygone era. We now live in era of trucks trains & planes.
Case n point- King Cotton- Graceland- from the river navigation era- passing over Memphis to West Mem last April had diked area back to I55 full. A good indicatior of flood. 1 month later ole muddy aka mississippi river let loose a 50 year flood straighway into downtown Memphis- a direct result of thai govt' ineptitude. I never cease to be amased how far reaching they are, they even got fingers into Beale Street and Graceland- next we will hear Elvis is walking Bangkok streets.
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Re: Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:27 pm

Otis,
Which floods in Australia? Queensland, Victoria or Northern Territory? Are you talking flash floods or are you talking substantial flooding over a long period?
Or are you saying that floods just happen, so we should sink or swim?
I would have thought that a hydrologist would or should know a lot more, and expound to us mere mortals the real reasons why floods happen. Or are you saying that university professors should be ignored because they are all libertines?
Or are you saying Thai politicians do not have to shoulder any responsibility for being inept?
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Re: Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:01 pm

rr
whats your experts excuse for this:
'' A series of floods hit Australia, beginning in December 2010, primarily in the state of Queensland including its capital city, Brisbane. The floods forced the evacuation of thousands of people from towns and cities.[2] At least seventy towns and over 200,000 people were affected.[2] Damage initially was estimated at around A$1 billion.[3] The estimated reduction in Australia's GDP is about A$30 billion.[1] Three-quarters of the state of Queensland was declared a disaster zone.[4] Communities along the Fitzroy and Burnett Rivers were particularly hard hit, while the Condamine, Ballone and Mary Rivers recorded substantial flooding. An unexpected flash flood raced through Toowoomba's central business district before devastating communities in the Lockyer Valley. A few days later thousands of houses in Ipswich and Brisbane were inundated as the Brisbane River rose and Wivenhoe Dam used a considerable proportion of its flood mitigation capacity.
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Re: Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby otis-a » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:15 pm

rr
''Wivenhoe Dam used a considerable proportion of its flood mitigation capacity.''
if 200k people affected and 1billion A$ is your experts best ''mitigation'', please leave me out. I better spend my time looking for Elvis in bkk.
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Re: Flood Related from Building in Nontharburi/Pak Kret

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:28 pm

Otis,
That's what I like about being selective, let's just post the very bad news without actually completing it, so that everyone gets the picture you want to paint.
So on that note let me post the rest of your wiki page: - Brisbane were inundated as the Brisbane River rose and Wivenhoe Dam used a considerable proportion of its flood mitigation capacity. Volunteers were quick to offer assistance and sympathy was expressed from afar. A large mobilisation of the Australian Defence Force was activated and a relief fund created. The head of the recovery taskforce was Major General Michael Slater, DSC, AM, CSC. The Queensland Reconstruction Authority was formed to co-ordinate the rebuilding program beyond the initial taskforce and a Commission of Inquiry established to investigate all matters related to the floods.
The 2010–2011 floods killed 35 people in Queensland.[5] As of 26 January, an additional nine people were missing.[6] The state's coal industry was particularly hard hit. The Queensland floods were followed by the 2011 Victorian floods which saw more than fifty communities in western and central Victoria also grapple with significant flooding.
I don't know what you do in America Otis, but we are used to fires, floods and other natural disasters, so what we do is look at all the causes and all the mitigating circumstances and then we act on that information after the disaster.
We also appoint army commanders to take over and run things because we know 1. The army won't shoot it's own citizens. 2. They have no political affiliation - they work for the people without fear nor favour and they will mobilise every source possible without political interference and without reservation. 3. The army alone is not enough to supply manpower, so other sources are tapped... locals with expertise, locals with prior knowledge etc. but the army commander is in charge totally and everything goes through him, not politicians. The whole point is, the people have total confidence in the armed forces being able to coordinate everything on the ground and the press have unrestricted access to all information. The rest of the people all do their little bit to help in anyway they can, and if they can't they stay out of the way.
I'm not going to get into what powers the army has or how they plan and execute everything because that would take pages, let's just say that when the Australian army holds exercises everything is coordinated through and with civilian authorities.
If other governments offer assistance we also accept gracefully.
And in the end, after everything is over there is a massive report released, which is when the government acts and instigates the changes recommended.
It's called a democratic process. It also allows the government to govern during the times of crisis be it a natural disaster or a man made one.
And this is where we get to Thailand and it's dysfunctional government/people, all caused over the years by army coups, coups and more coups, so that the normal people no longer have any trust in them and neither do I... and hence the prime minister taking over and trying to run things when she has little expertise in such large scale operations. Along with that all the childish antics of the politicians playing their silly little games not only annoys me, but the people effected by the floods. Just read the "intelligent" comments posted by so called sane people in the press in regards to the PM's handling of the situation... let me quote from The Nation "She's a slut" "I don't like her fashions" "She's not running it, Thaksin is". And all the little snipes about attending concerts ..which she didn't... and the photos shoots of the ex PM helping when in actual fact he flew off on holidays... to the Maldives right at the most crucial stage.... And you want to try and tell me that would happen in any sane country?
Sorry Otis, you can't have incompetent people promoted through seniority alone, or through who they know, not what they know and you certainly can't have a dysfunctional "family" in times of crisis, which is my whole point.
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