thermal cooling

Air conditioning, fans, and anything related to keeping it cool, such as insulation. This would include any posts generally discussing how to keep it cool, such as which types of blocks are better insulators.... ideal wall thickness for keeping an A/C house cool, etc.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL

thermal cooling

Postby Nawty » Sat May 31, 2008 7:13 pm

Has anyone first hand experience with this method, or similar with same result.

http://siamgpi.com/solarpower/solarcooling.html

Very interested in cost for average house compared to aircon installation and efficency of it....does it actually work as well in cooling as aircon units and can it actually 'replace' aircon in reality.

Or is it similar to solar power, expensive and takes years to realise a cost return if ever.
User avatar
Nawty
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Re: thermal cooling

Postby Attila » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Nawty wrote:Has anyone first hand experience with this method, or similar with same result.

http://siamgpi.com/solarpower/solarcooling.html


Yes, works fine, if installed correctly.

Nawty wrote:Very interested in cost for average house compared to aircon installation and efficency of it....


Installation costs are somewhat higher, depending on the system used.

Efficiency is much better, you need less energy to run it = running costs are lower.

Nawty wrote:does it actually work as well in cooling as aircon units


Better. More healthy, natural cooling. Perceived temperature is lower as in conventional systems at the same "real" temperature.

Nawty wrote:and can it actually 'replace' aircon in reality.


Can? It does! This is nothing invented today, or yesterday, but is installed quite often and for many years in many successfull installations, as far as I know mainly in Europe, where most of these systems are coming from.

Here you might need an additional dehumidifier, and a professional company to install it. Whoever installs it needs to understand what a dew point is and needs to regulate the system accordingly.

Nawty wrote:Or is it similar to solar power, expensive and takes years to realise a cost return if ever.


Oh well, yes, I know, there are people who talk about ROI and costs and expensive and they will not stop before our climate has gone FUBAR ... Here the figures are actually quite well, the lower running costs will amortize the system fast. If fast enough for you, that you need to decide yourself.

If you add the factor "health" to your calculations (now who wood do such a nonsense!) then it even is an excellent investment, now and today!

If you can afford a house and a conventional cold air blower, then you can afford such a system too. It is affordable. My next house will have it.
Attila
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Thailand

Postby Nawty » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:01 pm

While I appreciate your reply....how do I know it works fine, especially as you have not shown me, you are just telling me.

What does 'considerably' higher mean ? Considerably higher usually means it is priced out of the market for general use amongst the general population except for those with very deep pockets that can afford to throw away a 'considerable' sum on a feel good application

"If you can afford a house and a conventional cold air blower, then you can afford such a system too. It is affordable. "

So if my system cost 350k you're saying this thermal system is the same ? installed ?
User avatar
Nawty
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Postby Attila » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:23 pm

Nawty wrote:While I appreciate your reply....how do I know it works fine, especially as you have not shown me, you are just telling me.


Well, you asked if someone knows, not if someone can show you :wink:

Nawty wrote:...

"If you can afford a house and a conventional cold air blower, then you can afford such a system too. It is affordable. "

So if my system cost 350k you're saying this thermal system is the same ? installed ?


How much costs a car?

Same as with cars there are different manufacturers for such systems, and they have, similarly, different prices.

Overall, as I said,

Attila wrote:Installation costs are somewhat higher, depending on the system used.

Efficiency is much better, you need less energy to run it = running costs are lower.


That should answer your question of "same as 350000" - it will be somewhat more. How much more depends if you buy a Hino or a Toyota or a Lexus.

If I remember correctly these professional companies, such as the one you mention, are offering a planning service, called energy consulting, where they support the architect in his planning process by giving him exactly these calculations, based on the building concerned, and its intended usage. Any other answer I would attempt to give you would be just a very rough estimate, but here is one anyway, I think the ROI is under 10 years, may be even under 5. = Affordable!
Attila
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Thailand

Postby Nawty » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:44 am

I actually asked if someone had 'first hand experience with this system'

This usually means, the person has installed it them selves, knows someone who actually has it and runs it etc.

Either way that person would then have fisrt hand access to the exact cost for that house for that particular system.

I also asked for 'that' system re cost etc, not a lexus or lada version.

And yes, if 5 years or under, then it is certainly affordable and good for all reasons, as long as it works.

So by your comments, 5 years of eletcricity plus the 350k cost of normal aircon system, should put you in a cose cost range for this system....so lets say again by your reckoning.....350k, plus say 5k per month for eletcricity x 12 months x 5 years = 650k.
User avatar
Nawty
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Postby Attila » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:30 am

Nawty wrote:I actually asked if someone had 'first hand experience with this system'

This usually means, the person has installed it them selves, knows someone who actually has it and runs it etc.


Yes, I do.

Nawty wrote:Either way that person would then have fisrt hand access to the exact cost for that house for that particular system.


Yes, I do.

Nawty wrote:I also asked for 'that' system re cost etc, not a lexus or lada version.


No you haven't. You asked "Very interested in cost for average house compared to". I apologize if I misread your English once again.

Nawty wrote:And yes, if 5 years or under, then it is certainly affordable and good for all reasons, as long as it works.

So by your comments, 5 years of eletcricity plus the 350k cost of normal aircon system, should put you in a cose cost range for this system....so lets say again by your reckoning.....350k, plus say 5k per month for eletcricity x 12 months x 5 years = 650k.


Hmmmm you forgot the running costs of the system. While they are lower, even such a system needs power.

Please note that the systems indeed have very different costs. I do not know what is available for you, what you'll get offered. But I do know that you can install these systems with these blue capillary pipes, as seen on the pictures of the weblink you provided, but that manufacturer is quite expensive. I have seen one installation with it, which was done by unprofessionals, who had it sweating and cooling, and I have seen the same system after the professionals adjusted it, and then it was cooling but not sweating. :D

In the discussions with the technicians of the professionals I understood that they can install such a system for significantly lower cost if supplied by a different supplier, or if they build it themselves, all while having the same functionality. They also said that they would not install that expensive system anymore, so the costs of it are somehow obsolete.

Furthermore they explained me that they calculate these systems based on the real cooling load of the building, which factors in the thermal shell of the building, the windows, doors, walls, ceiling, insulation, and the usage of the building. They explained me that they do not simply offer you a "too big" a/c unit, as the a/c shop down the road usually does.

Therefore there is no simple price for these systems, but there is a planning step, a calculation, involved, which due to its complexity is a payable service.

In that specific case, the calculated ROI, even using the expensive material, was less than 10 years.
Attila
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Thailand

Postby tung » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:22 pm

Now Now boys, let's not have another bun fight!
tung
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: Hua Hin

Re: thermal cooling

Postby grant » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:57 pm

deleted.
Last edited by grant on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
grant
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:48 pm
Location: Phuket

Re: thermal cooling

Postby grant » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:59 pm

I spoke to SiamGPI about this system last year as I was considering it for my home in Phuket. The problem with such a system here is the high humidity and therefore high dew point. The cooling water needs be in the range of 16-18 deg C for the system to be effective but if the dew point in the room is higher than the cooling water temperature, then you will get condensation on the surface, normally the ceiling with this system. A conventional dehumidifier is not the answer because the cost of running the dehumidifier and the radiant cooling system would be comparable to a conventional a/c system. SiamGP were testing a prototype dehumidification system they designed that did not require electricity. I really would have liked to try it but was at the point of needing to make a decision and was not prepared to be the guinea pig. I suggest you contact SiamGP and see how they have progressed with the system during the past 12 months and ask them specifically if they have been able to overcome the dehumidification issue.
grant
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:48 pm
Location: Phuket

Re: thermal cooling

Postby Attila » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:14 pm

grant wrote:I spoke to SiamGPI about this system last year as I was considering it for my home in Phuket. The problem with such a system here is the high humidity and therefore high dew point. The cooling water needs be in the range of 16-18 deg C for the system to be effective but if the dew point in the room is higher than the cooling water temperature, then you will get condensation on the surface, normally the ceiling with this system.

This is exactly the point, or better, the dew point ;)

However I think calling it a "high" dew point is misleading. It is more that when the dew point is reached there is a lot of humidity available to condensate.

The regulation of the system must make sure that the dew point is never reached. That means that the temperature difference between the water in the cooling pipes and the air in the room, or more precisely the air touching the "cooling" surface, is at any time that small that the dew point is not reached.

That's why you cannot pump in cold water in the cooling surfaces, while you have hot air in the room. If you start right away with 16-18 deg C water and you have a room temperature of 30 deg C, you will see the water pouring down the walls. The system would have to start with much warmer water, I guess about 27 deg C, and then, when the room temperature falls down from 30 to 29, go down simultaneously with the water temperature 1 degree to 26, and so on and so on, until you reach the target temperature.

Then you open the door, hot air enters the room, and the system has to react immediately and to adjust the water temperature accordingly.

This sudden addition of humidity in form of hot air entering the room when a door / window is opened, this is the main reason why you want an additional dehumidifier.

Generally, the more you have humidity entering the room, through open doors, untight windows, etc, the more you want to dehumidify.

Keep in mind that warm air can contain much more humidity than cold air, so even if you do not see it, the warm air, at least here, has more humidity than the colder air can contain.

In an ideal scenario you cool down the building slowly and you have walls which can handle some humidity, and then the need for additional dehumidification is small, or gone. But we rarely have such a scenario.

I think I have seen such a dehumidification system, as you, Grant, describe it, in action, so I guess the development of SiamGPI was successfull. Otherwise you could just add a small conventional a/c unit, the smallest you can get, may be 9000 BTU, in the biggest room and have that supporting the system by handling and dehumidifying the hot air entering the room / building when a door is opened. Then the other rooms, without a door to the outside, could probably run on the radiant surface cooling alone ... silent and quiet cooling in your bedroom! :D
Attila
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Thailand


Return to cooling systems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron