New pool DIM

Any thing to do with swimming pools, fish ponds, or other man made structures which hold water (but not wells for drinking water).

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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:55 am

Rdteth wrote: My plan is using weber-dry-tex for waterproofing, what costs about 100B per square meter.
What to do. Save 24000B on material only or not. Anybody here have a pool without waterproofing render?

I had the most hopeless pool people in Thailand and refused to allow them to pour the concrete unless there was waterproofing in the mixture. In fact, because their engineer was not on site, just some workers, I sent the first truck away until their boss was there with the waterproofing mixture and a wriggler to pack the cement down with...... Always short-cuts, always excuses. If the pour is done correctly the tile people will skim the render for their tiles, there should be no reason to render the pool at all prior to the laying of tiles, which in itself is a professional's job and they use a special adhesive/mixture with the skim render.
The day you start "saving" like the Thais do is the day you'll get cracks in the pool wall and floor within months and the whole thing will have to be redone.
And just because a smart mouthed "farang" answers the phone and convinces you he knows it all, he probably doesn't and when you show the plans to him and his "foreman" and they keep turning the page it's on (first floor) to the next page (second floor) and then the "foreman" tells you a price that is 100,000 more than the Farang it's time to pull out.
I actually drove to a pool shop (owned by the farang) for an appointment and had to wait two hours for him to eventually show up. When I asked where all the machinery was he said "In the warehouse" and when I looked at all the "diplomas and degrees" on the wall they all came from a correspondence university in America.... but he was willing to use some high end equipment and insisted that chlorination (chlorine) not salt water chlorination was by far the best, even though I repeatedly told him I didn't want straight chlorine.
You'll also find in Bangkok that the "farang" has an agreement with the Thai "pool shops" to do the installation at three times the price you got direct from him.
And if you visit Thai Visa you'll find the same "farang" pontificating about pools and what he can do and the number of pools he's done, yet when I asked to see one he only had photos and no addresses and then the hollow threats about "It's a small pool and I normally do large ones in hotels and I don't need your money", except he's still interested right up until the day you catch him blatantly lying about sending you all the details and a contract via your email address and that he's sent you voice mail.....and you have neither an email address nor voice mail.
Be careful.
Having said all that Jazzman is the only person who has been totally open and honest about the whole thing. Why don't you send him a PM? Or get him to send you one?
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby jazzman » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:04 am

Nobody in Thailand has built a thousand pools - not in this life or a previous one. That's just bravado or shark-speak.
However, it is in fact quite correct that the walls of a correctly built concrete pool do not need sealing with weber-dry-tex (or any equivalent brand). The question is however, is the pool constructor (or his agent, or the DIY project owner) fully aware of the proper methods of constructing and finishing an in-ground concrete pool in such a way that it is waterproof and remains so for life?

Shopping around for pool equipment may save a few bob here and there, but the store that offers free technical advice with a reasonably large order might not always have the absolute rock-bottom lowest prices in the country, but one can be sure that the goods didn't come off the back of a lorry or over to Thailand in someone's baggage (thus not covered by he manufacturer's warranty).

Backup for purchased products will hardly be needed if reputable brands are obtained that come with a manufacturer's warranty and a professional approach to marketing from the vendor. Indeed, quality products generally only fail during the guarantee period because they have been incorrectly chosen and/or incorrectly installed - which are then not warranty issues anyway. One pool shop I know of hasn't built a thousand pools (yet) but has sold over a thousand pumps and they say that they only ever had 7 genuine cases for guarantee work. In those cases, they went further than the maker's guarantee and simply exchanged the pumps for brand new ones rather than making the pool owner wait for a repair. I call that service .

Another point to ponder is why, with so many pool 'firms' in the Hua Hin/ Cha Am area, are so many out-of-town pool companies increasingly being asked to come down to Pratchuap Kiri Kahn province to build pools, and why are the genuine online stores shipping truckloads of quality components (in some cases everything but the CPAC and rebar) direct to DIY end users in that area?
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Rdteth » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:39 am

Roger, jazzman, thanks for the responses.

Roger, I spoke with thai persons only. I don't even have a clue about the farang guy you mention.
I was kind of surprised that no "seperate" render is necessary and therefore I asked the question. I once saw on a forum that they rendered the walls with waterproofing render and then put the tiles on the floor in the thai way, some 4 cm mortar under the tiles.

Not in a PM to jazzman, because it seems to me interesting to all the readers of this forum.

One question, the tiling render, could that be weber-tai-gres?

Regards.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby jazzman » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:01 pm

Weber-tai-ges is one of two tile adhesives available in Thailand that are expressly described by their nanufacturers as being especially suitable for swimming pool tiles. Any pool builder who does not know about it shouldn't even be trusted to bang anail in a piece of wood. Weber-tai-ges is not a render. New concrete pool walls generally need to be rendered with up to 1 cm of render to make them perfectly flat and to smooth out the deficiencies left by the formwork. The render is usually a 'hard' mix, with waterproofing compound added.

It is perfectly possible to cast a 20cm thick floor and get it to within 1 - 2mm accuracy for its depth (and slope if required) - laying tiles on it the Thai way on a further bed of 4cm mortar is totally superfluous and just asking for trouble.
It is also essential that proper grout specially engineered for pools is used. Unfortunately it is 4 to 5 times more expensive than ordinary grout and I've rarely seen it being used - even by so-called 'professionals'. I've seen 20 - 30 pools in the past 12 months though where the tiles have started coming loose after only 2 years. At a 1 million baht refurb of a very large condo pool in Satahip last year, the tiles all fell off before they were finished and the water put in. The 'pool company' vaporised itself. Of course.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Rdteth » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:11 pm

Thanks jazzman, very clear answers.
English is not my first language, I have to look up words like skim render or wriggler etc and can mix up terms sometimes, like now with render and tile adhesive.

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Re: New pool DIM

Postby jazzman » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:44 pm

How about Fliesenkleber, or Estrich, or chape or colle à carrelage? I speak perfect English, French, and German, just tell us what you need to know.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:52 pm

Rdteth wrote:In all of jazzman's posts he never mentioned the name. I don't expect it now.


My experience with that company, I contacted them twice by responsemail on their website and have 1 order processed.
They are very professional with their shop. Order handling, payment, shipping and tracking as you would expect in europe.
Incredible fast responses on email question., even on saturday within hours.

I'm in the process of making a complete list of all things I will need. I'm only using good quality brands which are available (or at least should be) at any decent shop. Then send that list to several suppliers.for a quotation. I want to avoid buying things all around town and country. One supplier, one relation - ok, and some sort of local backup.

Now this week I spoke with the owner of a quite large and very reputable poolfirm in HuaHin. I don't mention the 3 letter name ofcourse. At a certain moment I asked what he used for waterproofing layer after setting up the walls. He answered that in the thousand pools he has made he never ever used anything like that. Just use the right concrete in the pour and that will do. So now I'm confused. My plan is using weber-dry-tex for waterproofing, what costs about 100B per square meter.
What to do. Save 24000B on material only or not. Anybody here have a pool without waterproofing render?

Cheers

You may have noticed that I didn't mention a name either, nor yet did I ask for one.

My friend has a pool in progress that is somewhat unconventional. He has double block work walls with a quite thin gap between filled with concrete.

He is of the opinion that he doesn't need a waterproof render and is going to rely on the waterproof tile cement and waterproof grout.

My guess is that he will not have a waterproof pool, but it's his money and work also I have no experience with pools to say that he is wrong, so time will tell.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby jazzman » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:58 pm

For the benefit of anyone who missed it, here it is again:
Weber-tai-ges is one of two tile adhesives available in Thailand that are expressly described by their nanufacturers as being especially suitable for swimming pool tiles. Any pool builder who does not know about it shouldn't even be trusted to bang anail in a piece of wood. Weber-tai-ges is not a render. New concrete pool walls generally need to be rendered with up to 1 cm of render to make them perfectly flat and to smooth out the deficiencies left by the formwork. The render is usually a 'hard' mix, with waterproofing compound added.


Double blockwork is a recognised method of creating formwork for the concrete walls. It is particularly useful for freeform pools. It is not usual to use it for structural purposes although it stays in place after the concrete has been cast. The iportant thing is that the concrete is of the correct thickness and the correct amount and type of reinforcing steel has been used, and that the concrete was delivered by a reputable concrete company, was of the correct strength ('steng'), contained waterproofing agent, and the walls were cast in one single pass.

Equally important but often 'forgotten' , even by 'professionals', is the rubber waterstop in the join between the floor and the walls.

If all these points were not carried out, then yes, it's possible the pool will leak.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Breizh29 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:31 pm

I read this post with great interest (like some other posts!). But I am sure I will not build our pool alone. :roll: The team who built our house and the peremiter walls seem willing to work for us. :wink: But for this job, I'll be the architect! :lol:
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:33 am

jazzman wrote:For the benefit of anyone who missed it, here it is again:


Double blockwork is a recognised method of creating formwork for the concrete walls. It is particularly useful for freeform pools. It is not usual to use it for structural purposes although it stays in place after the concrete has been cast. The iportant thing is that the concrete is of the correct thickness and the correct amount and type of reinforcing steel has been used, and that the concrete was delivered by a reputable concrete company, was of the correct strength ('steng'), contained waterproofing agent, and the walls were cast in one single pass.

Equally important but often 'forgotten' , even by 'professionals', is the rubber waterstop in the join between the floor and the walls.

If all these points were not carried out, then yes, it's possible the pool will leak.


I know that some of the points you mention (the water stop is one) have not been done. So the substructure could be porous at the moment, the builder and owner (who is a builder by profession, but not of swimming pools) is convinced that a good tile adhesive will do the job of waterproofing and That a waterproof render isn't needed. He may be lucky in that the soil here is a heavy clay so it naturally holds water.

Having said all of that my question(s) will the tile adhesive waterproof the structure? If not would a render waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?
I do understand that if there is any movement of the walls or floor when it gets filled all bets are off.

This is of academic interest to me, as though I like SCUBA diving I'm not a great enthusiast of swimming and will not be building a pool myself. Neither will I be passing on the information to the owner builder, as he is very sure of his choice and probably doesn't want to hear anything that may contradict it.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:29 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote: If not would a render waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?

Jerome,
When you pour the walls and if the concrete is wriggled and allowed to settle properly, the walls should come out just like beams that have been properly done, so why would you need to render the walls after? If there are any small places where the concrete didn't settle properly, they get skimmed over by the tiler with his waterproofed special render just before the tiles are adhered.
When my pool was tiled a special crew was employed who showed me what they were using as waterproof adhesive for the tiles and also the special grout they would use to between the tiles.
There is absolutely no need to render. Rendering will just make an unreinforced wall on top of another reinforced wall. The most important thing to remember is the rubber seal around the base.
It costs a little bit more money for the tile adhesive and grout for a pool, but if you can afford the pool you can afford the correct materials to build it.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:48 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote: If not would a render waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?

Jerome,
When you pour the walls and if the concrete is wriggled and allowed to settle properly, the walls should come out just like beams that have been properly done, so why would you need to render the walls after? If there are any small places where the concrete didn't settle properly, they get skimmed over by the tiler with his waterproofed special render just before the tiles are adhered.
When my pool was tiled a special crew was employed who showed me what they were using as waterproof adhesive for the tiles and also the special grout they would use to between the tiles.
There is absolutely no need to render. Rendering will just make an unreinforced wall on top of another reinforced wall. The most important thing to remember is the rubber seal around the base.
It costs a little bit more money for the tile adhesive and grout for a pool, but if you can afford the pool you can afford the correct materials to build it.

Did you miss the point that there was no rubber seal in the the base to wall joint and that my guess is that a vibrator was not used and quite possibly no waterproofing additive in the concrete and maybe more than one pour so probably making the substructure porous. The block work and concrete walls may be strong enough to retain the weight of the water as it mostly in the ground

So to ask again will the tile adhesive waterproof the structure? If not would a render and tile adhesive waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Roger Ramjet » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:15 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:So to ask again will the tile adhesive waterproof the structure? If not would a render and tile adhesive waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?

Not being the resident expert on pools (Jazzman) I don't know. Perhaps I'd start again. There are a few pools that have stood the test of time, but not putting in the rubber seal, doing the pour in stages and not using a vibrator or mixing waterproofing with the original pour of cement, makes it all a moot point. If I said it would stand up, I'd be guessing, not having seen the size and amount of rebar used. There's a photo of the correct waterproofing material on my build, but with all the other "mistakes" I'm not sure it would work or not.
I do know that putting render over the blocks would be a waste of time as the render has little strength and would just give another place for the water to work on. It would depend on the tiles used and the adhesive they were attached with, as well as the grout used, but that would also depend on the type of cement used between the blocks.
Too many depends there.
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Re: New pool DIM

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:03 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:So to ask again will the tile adhesive waterproof the structure? If not would a render and tile adhesive waterproof it? If not would anything waterproof it?

Not being the resident expert on pools (Jazzman) I don't know. Perhaps I'd start again. There are a few pools that have stood the test of time, but not putting in the rubber seal, doing the pour in stages and not using a vibrator or mixing waterproofing with the original pour of cement, makes it all a moot point. If I said it would stand up, I'd be guessing, not having seen the size and amount of rebar used. There's a photo of the correct waterproofing material on my build, but with all the other "mistakes" I'm not sure it would work or not.
I do know that putting render over the blocks would be a waste of time as the render has little strength and would just give another place for the water to work on. It would depend on the tiles used and the adhesive they were attached with, as well as the grout used, but that would also depend on the type of cement used between the blocks.
Too many depends there.

Thanks anyway, if I find out I will report.
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Update 16 apr 16

Postby Rdteth » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:02 pm

Still busy.
Finally the digging is done!
You ask me if I would ever do it again?

NOT IN A MILLION YEARS

My advice: Don't do this at home, ever!!!!!

There are better ways.
BTW digging ain't the real issue, it's been that rock everywhere that gave me the real hard times.

So now finishing off the groundwork and setting up the perimeter wall.

Cheers and a happy newyear

Rene
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Close up newly done
20160417_075231.jpg
as per 16 4 16
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