Running costs of a pool?

Any thing to do with swimming pools, fish ponds, or other man made structures which hold water (but not wells for drinking water).

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL, pattayapope

Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby Maseratimartin » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:52 pm

pattayapope wrote:Martin


On the solar panel side I will tell you what I know, the large panels are typically 100 watt output and give up to 32 volts DC, these are fed into a charge controler and then the battery bank. If you want an AC supply you will need an inverter and these can be quite costly. The pumps I have pull about 6.2 A but the starting current is much higher. Althoug solar power is free it has a very high startup cost, a friend lving on a lake in Kanchaburi has a system and he has spent well over 1 million baht on it and replaces 5 batteries every year minimum. He has power for appliances and fans but cannot run any AC units and he uses LPG fired water heaters.



As I said I have to check this more detailed.
But I'm sure I don't need an inverter!
We change on our cable car many times from 400V AC to 110V AC and then with a Transformer (charger) to 24V DC.
In the other way we have backup batteries 24V DC what supply many facilities...220V AC Computer....400V AC brakes....
And the transformation is done with transformer (charger)...sure of high quality.
A inverter is needed to run a motor controlled by frequency....not to transform energy!

To reduce high start currents it's possible to use softstarter....actually it is used in every bigger electrical tool to do so.

I will not use batteries....I don't want to store energy....I want to be connected to the grid....if I not use the energy it will be supplied in the net....if I have no power from the solar panel it will automatically come from the net.
In other countries you have two counter....used from net.....supplied to net.....you pay or even receive money!
I do not expect to get money as they are not so far in Thailand, but at least I can use the net as a compensation....somewhere the power has to go!

I need to check with the local office about this method, but it must be possible! I know that our cable cars all supply power back in the net when the motors are in deceleration and work like an alternator....the power needs to go somewhere!

My associate (electrical expert) is actually at home in Italy and I will try to get more info as soon as possible to share with you guys....also what such design could cost.


Regarding water heaters....I will go also for LPG....this is a cheap solution and what I experience now also here in Hong Kong....the gas heater work much better and faster.....
For cooking the same...you need it hot....you take gas!
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby jazzman » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:37 am

Couple of points:
Germany : interesting, I built my first pool in 1973 in a place called Hambühren, Kreis Celle.

Salt costs: around 150 - 175 baht for a 25 Kg bag, or around 300 baht for a 50 Kg bag. Any more and you are being fleeced. If you've got space to store it, you can get delivered for free. The popularity of salt water systems has increased so much that , that some salt processessing firms now package some of their production in 25 Kg sacks, lableled as Special Salt For Swimming Pools - it's exactly the same stuff they supply in the 50 Kg sacks to the food processing, and chemical industries. It's 99% pure sodium chloride, also known as salt, common salt, table salt, or halite, with the formula NaCl.

Cyanuric acid: Extremely useful particularly if you are using a salt water chlorinator. It's not a question of needing it eventually - you should always add some. Be careful where you buy it, some pool shops are selling it for a horrendous 1,500 baht for a small 5 Kg bag, while some pool 'specialists' have never even heard of it.

Electricity costs:Over the years I seem to keep posting this information. I do wish people would read the whole topic before asking the same old quesrtions: A 1.5 Kw pump cannot use more electricity than 1.5 Kw. Look at the figures I keep posting and calculate from the cost per Kw from your electricity bill. Underwater lights are usually equipped with 100W halogen bulbs. Some lights for very large or commercial pools use 300W sealed-beam units. Generally, in a domestic situation, pool lights are not left on just to create an effect in the garden. They will of course impact on the electricity bill if they are left on all the time, but please remember that up to now you have all been talking mainly about the cost of running the pump.

LED lighting: Underwater LED lights started to arrive in Thailand a couple of years ago but the prices have only recently started to come down a little to match the increase in demand. They are extremely efficient and far longer lasting than halogen lights. Where halogen bulbs are often already duff when you take a new light out of its packaging (no guarantee BTW on the bulb), and a tiny spare bulb can cost up to 800 baht (in a pool shop of course), and where probably 25% of them pack up after only 6 months of use, LEDs have virtually nothing to go wrong. Unless you buy the ones that have a tiny microrpocessor card in the housing that changes the colours. There are two kinds. Ones that look like normal wall surface mounted halogen lights (indeed, they use the same surround, adapted for the LED insert), and small diamter LED clusters that fit into a short 2 inch diameter recess in the wall. In both cases go for the white-only ones as the ones that change colour are sooner or later going to get stuck on one colour. The units cost from about 7,000 baht each, and if they do happen to give up the ghost, the only real solution is to change the whole unit. Avantages? A lot lower electricity consumption for comparable IsoCandela or Lumens. Slightly higher purchase cost than halogen, but very low maintenance.

Solar: There are no solar solutions currently available on the market that will save money on running a swimming pool pump. All proper pool pumps are designed to run on 220 - 240 volts AC - some more powerful ones, usually 3 HP or over, will need 380V 3-phase, but even then, the general trend is to use two 220V 1.5 HP pumps instead of one 3-phase, 3 HP pump. the advantages are obvious: saving on the cost of having 3-phse electricity installed just for a small domestic pool, and a second pump to continue to do some of the filtration when the other one breaks down.
Check out the cost of a genuine 1.5 Kw 12 - 16V DC to 220V AC converter, a set of proper batteries for use with solar systems, a charge rate stabiliser, a solar panel, and the cost of the know-how to install it all, and if in doubt ask Attila's advice, he has all the graphs and table - he used to be a consultant for a solar energy company that has now gone out of business, and neither he nor I know of any suitable alternatives.

Salt water chlorinators: When I installed my first one about 10 years ago, it was a Zodiac Clearwater which I got brought over from Australia. Saltwater systems have since increased dramatically in popularity, and with it, the demand for salt, which of course is being wickedly exploited by the pools shops at up to three or fours times the real price.
There are now several brands and models of chlorinators on the market, at various prices depending on their quality of manuafcture, and on the features they offer. Most of the pool shops and pool corners in large shopping malls or builder's merchants are charging anything up to double the normal recommended retail price. I've heard of up to 80,000 baht being asked in Phuket for a chlorinator for a 3 x 4 pool that is nothing more than an oversized bath tub. You can get one for as little as 25,000 baht. Beware however of the quality. Avoid the cheap ones that are not fully computerised (easily recognisable rfom an analog, clock-type timer on them, instead of a digital display screen)., or the ones that are an in-line cell with a built-in control panel. They have been designed for the low-end market, they are manuafactured in China, and generally they will go duff within about two years. A proper one, made in Australia or America, will cost about 35,000 - 45,000 for a standard domestic pool from 32 m2 (roughly 6 x 8 x average depth 1.2 m) to about 50 m2, and it will have a guarantee that starts at about three years, more powerful models for large pools, or pools with a high bather load, only cost a fraction more. These brands don't just turn the pump and chlorinator cell on and off at the set times, but they also actually measure and control the chlorination level and dose the chlorine production automatically as required.
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby pattayapope » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:50 pm

fredlk wrote:
pattayapope wrote:The pool lights are LED and have several different patterns.

Are you satisfied with them? Do they give a good light? I was not sure if they were powerful enough for under water.


Fred lights work OK an very satisfied with them, they are all syncronised and depending how many times you switch the on switch in quick sucession it will give different effect.

Jazzman

All you points are 100% correct and I guess I over paid for the cynuric acid, I got a couple of 50 KG bags of salt from Samut Sakhon for 200 baht a bag (sea salt), the pool guy said it is not suitable (he would say that). The only thing I see is the granuels are a little courser than the bag he supplied, what are your thoughts on this, should it be mined salt rather than sea salt?
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby Maseratimartin » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:19 pm

So my friends....here some news from Thailand:

http://www.solartron.co.th/Product_Download.html

This thai company makes solar pump systems....solar grid connected systems.....
No batteries....!
I saw that a 1,7KW grid system in US costs about 6000US$....let's see what the thai company quotes....seems like that the costs are in a range that it makes sense to think about it!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby Maseratimartin » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:38 pm

Here the direct link to the description of a grid connected solar system:

http://www.solartron.co.th/Product_Application.htm

As soon I get answer from the manufacturer I will update you guys....
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby jazzman » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:01 pm

pattayapope wrote:Jazzman

All you points are 100% correct and I guess I over paid for the cynuric acid, I got a couple of 50 KG bags of salt from Samut Sakhon for 200 baht a bag (sea salt), the pool guy said it is not suitable (he would say that). The only thing I see is the granuels are a little courser than the bag he supplied, what are your thoughts on this, should it be mined salt rather than sea salt?


All salt is pure natrium chloride wherever it comes from. If it's mined, it comes from evaporation sediment on seabeds from tens of millions of years ago. Ergo: it's all sea salt :)

Samut Sakhon is the place to get it. It's where the pool shops fetch it and them whack 100% or 200% profit margin on it. On pool shop in Pattaya is selling it for 550 baht per bag! There is also an inland packaging warehouse in Korat (Nakhon Ratchasima) who will deliver it free in Isaan for a minimum order of 50 or so bags.

Solar/ At $6,000 your ROI (point where your electricity starts to be free) will begin in 13.3 years. Some of the expensive components will also probably already have needed to be changed during that time - especially the batteries. Remember that no solar system can provide electricity in hours of darkness with out storing it in batteries.
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby MGV12 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:50 pm

IN times of need or for convenience when topping up the larder/freezer ... Makro do a 100% natural sea salt in 5Kg bags for around 35 Baht ... much better option if you don't have easy access to the types of places jazzman suggested.

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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby jazzman » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:42 pm

Not very convenient when you need half a ton of it :wink:
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby MGV12 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:39 pm

jazzman wrote:Not very convenient when you need half a ton of it :wink:


Quite right :wink: but I doubt many have the room or need to store 500Kgs of the stuff ... and with the world's oceans getting bigger not smaller it's not going to run out any time soon; convenience is very much a subjective consideration.

Not having a pool, nor intending to ... I leave the swimming to my Koi ... I know very little about salt-water pools and their running costs. I do understand that salt does not deplete in water .. it simply needs to be supplemented when you make a water change ... so, for the edification of pool laymen such as myself, just how long would 500Kgs of salt last for a pool of 60m3; such as the OP is intending to build?

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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby Maseratimartin » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:48 am

jazzman wrote:Jazzman

Solar/ At $6,000 your ROI (point where your electricity starts to be free) will begin in 13.3 years. Some of the expensive components will also probably already have needed to be changed during that time - especially the batteries. Remember that no solar system can provide electricity in hours of darkness with out storing it in batteries.


AS I said 6.000US$...the price in US....let's see what the thai company offers!
There are no batteries on a grid connected system....the grid is my battery....when I do not use power I even earn money!
Sure the costs are not cheap...but who knows how the costs for electricity develop....just look a little bit back when suddenly diesel was 100% more....yeah so fast the calculation is wrong.
Today electrical components are very reliable...
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby jazzman » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:24 am

MGV12 wrote: ... so, for the edification of pool laymen such as myself, just how long would 500Kgs of salt last for a pool of 60m3; such as the OP is intending to build?

Anything from 6 months to a year on an average sized domestic pool say up to around 60 m3. BUT, much depends on how often you backwash, and how heavily it rains. To give you an idea, two or three really powerful showers in a week can put 20 - 30 cm of water in an empty pool shell. That's around 20% of the water in an average pool.
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby kknaj » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:52 pm

My Idea for a pool shade would be use a simple steel roof structure like a carport and use those plastic UV protected shades you see at home pro, global etc. Any roofer could weld the steel together put the panels on and make sure its painted well - 4 coats. This would protect the pool from Sun and rain yet give some light from above and the sides when the sun is lower. Should keep the pool cool and not too much water. you could also angle the roof so the rain goes into a water tank rather than the pool.

An estimate of 20,000-30,000baht to build it comes to mind.

Something like this:
Attachments
IMG_3319_small.jpg
Steel structure could be something like this
porch sample.jpg
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby Maseratimartin » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:20 am

kknaj wrote:My Idea for a pool shade would be use a simple steel roof structure like a carport and use those plastic UV protected shades you see at home pro, global etc. Any roofer could weld the steel together put the panels on and make sure its painted well - 4 coats. This would protect the pool from Sun and rain yet give some light from above and the sides when the sun is lower. Should keep the pool cool and not too much water. you could also angle the roof so the rain goes into a water tank rather than the pool.

An estimate of 20,000-30,000baht to build it comes to mind.


Some well designed steel structure...maybe even in stainless..... with these UV protected plastic would sure be a good idea. The more I read about the salt and work involved for a pool...the more I see how important it would be to cover the pool to avoid rain water enters....and then sure the issue with a too warm pool...not refreshing.... but finally without destroying the good looks.

Does somebody already used the so called UV protected plastic ...is it really UV resistant....how does it look after 1,2,3 and more years?
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby geordie » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:19 pm

very common in the uk is a twinwall polycarbonate or even triple wall dead easy to work with
and used a lot for conservatory roofing its like a honycomb of small boxes i:e its two sheets with small upright conecting ribs or three sheets the same forming small boxes
i have seen it installed for years without any major defect although it does go brittle eventually and also you have the problem of wildlife crawling in and making house
dirt blowing in and reducing visibility dirt left on it seens to bake itself to the surface causing it to apear cloudy after a couple of years so regular washing down preserves it a lot longer however its a roof so not the easiest thing to do if its a large area but it is uv resistant although it traps heat under it (thats why we use it here)
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Re: Running costs of a pool?

Postby daisy » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:06 am

Figuring the running costs seems like a complex formula. We are looking to install our first pool and have been trying to calculate what the running costs will look like for us in Kansas City. Our friends found themselves blindsided when they found there running costs to be almost twice as much as they were quoted by the dealer. Like you said, I guess they're just trying to make a sale. Have you found that these prices fluctuate from year to year?
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