base of pool / footins

Any thing to do with swimming pools, fish ponds, or other man made structures which hold water (but not wells for drinking water).

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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:20 am

Read my post above dated Thu Dec 24,
It sounds as if you only need footings and not piles. However, only an expert pool constructor can tell you that after visiting your house. It's logical that you'll only get vague answers when you are looking for free information - pool builders and architects will be deliberately unhelpful if you are doing a DIY job. Nobody will come and see you for free.
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:39 pm

jazzman,
I did read your post of Thu Dec 24 and it told me nothing, other than which I knew and hence I asked again. Why don't you read my building thread? The pool is part of the inside of the house, hence it needs plans, hence it needs to be incorporated into the house plans, hence it needs to go to the engineer and architect and the pool guy, hence.....anyway, I do not have a problem with my pool guy, other than he hasn't sent me the contract to build the pool inside the house, which was promised over 3 weeks ago and is still not forthcoming etc. and he hasn't called and given a reason.
I am not after "free intellectual property righted information that is freely available at any university engineering department and which is taught everyday worldwide" all I wanted was the formula or even a guideline to the eventual weight of the water compared to the weight of the base of the pool.
The fact that Fred offered an explanation that sort of helped ease my over burdened mind also helped.
I thought this was a forum for buffalos like me to ask questions to put their minds at rest? Perhaps I was wrong.
It is not logical when I am paying people to do things and they are not being done because A is waiting for B to send something to C, then mix them all up and start again. And I go and see them, they don't come and see me....Read my building story!!!!
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:14 pm

I'm sorry, you're right , I didn't read your building story. I tend to have time only for answering questions on the main topics where I genuinely feel I can be of help. All too often, people do try to get freebies here and I apologize if that is what yoiu thought, but without referenig to your building story, that's what it looked like. Furthermore, nobody is accusing anyone of plagiarism or copyright infringement. The point I was making is that quite understandably, pool companies are generally not forthcoming with help if they are not going to get an order to build the pool.

So, on a different plane, it still looks as you have problems even with the people you are paying money to. In my experience this is generally because they have taken thier money off you with the typical statements of "Yes, of course we can do," without the foggiest idea if they really can or not. They are probably the ones who a re now trying to solicit advice as to what to do8

It happens all the time.

FYI: a simple pool like this will have 60 cu of water as you said. 60 cu of water weighs, unsurprisingly, 60 tonnes - buffalo law. For a small pool like this, a standard floor slab, 20 cm thick, steel reinforced, concrete poured in one go, concrete with waterproofiing additive, concrete rigorously vibrated, will be more than adequate. Ads for the footings vs piles, only your engineer can answer that, but generally, if your house was built on piles, then so should the pool be.

BTW: A correctly designed pool will not float upward if it is empty it will have hydrostatic valves in the floor which are designed specially to prevent that and a re neatly hidden in the maindrain cover. But you try explaining that to your average rogue pool constructor ;)

I'm ready to supply all the answers, free - just don't beat around the bush and complain, that's all :wink:
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:56 pm

jazzman,
Thank you for being honest. Your reply also helped. Apparently I am the only silly "farang" in two years to actually make an appointment with the pool people at their office, show up on time, with all the plans for the house, including footings, and after being kept waiting for 40 minutes, finally see the pool man. And he even used my excuse for being late....traffic. He did explain everything I asked, but I am still waiting for the contracts and his reply to the footings question was that it was not a big weight and I should see my engineer.
And so I am on that merry-go-round, but come tomorrow I am going to break the cycle of duck-shoving to the other person and get them all together for a conference.
And you/they are right, 60 tonnes spread over that area is nothing, but I still want them to all agree, so later, if things do go belly-up, I have recourse.
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:28 pm

Let's put it this way: a 44-ton artic (what they call a 'rig' in the USA) has its weight unevenly distributed through the pressure points of its of its 18 wheels on a 20 cm thick concrete roadway - often only reinforced with 6mm 20 x 20 wire mesh. Pools here are built with a double layer of either DB12, DB16 or DB20, depending on the size (or that's how they should be built, although many will argue that it's over engineered). Nevertheless, for the prices quoted by most pool companies here in Thailand that's most certainly what they should be doing, and if not, they are practicing an extortionate profit margin. Compare: your pool should not be costing you any more than around Baht 13,500 - 15,000 epr sq metre surface area. Any more (unless you are having it lined with some really expensive very special tiles), and you are being taken to the cleaners. In your situation, I would take the time to get some alternative quotes from some other pool specialists. The market for pools at the moment is so bad, no genuine pool builder is going to keep you waiting on him for your order, and he doesn't need your architect to tell him how to build it.

If you want an accurate breakdown of the costs, don't hesitate to ask.
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:54 pm

jazzman,
The pool man has quoted me 300,000 baht, which I am more than willing to pay. It is a reasonable price to pay when I was quoted 1,500,000 and 1,200,000 by two Thai architect/building companies. It may actually cost a little more than that by just 50,000 as he has recommended a new type of non-slip finish throughout the pool.... and as I have no idea about finishes for pools, I'll take his word on that. I have seen the work they do, so I am not at all worried about the pool or finish.
My real problem was the footings for the pool because they must be done right at the beginning of the build, because it is indoors and I don't want people digging into ground that has already been compacted, let alone wanting to add to the already large footings already in place. So it's a catch 22 situation. I shall talk to them all tomorrow.
The one thing that did rather annoy me was when he told me to get my building supervisor/foreman/project manager to call and talk to his Thai man who would be doing the build. I told him I was the building supervisor/foreman/project manager because I wanted the whole house built properly, I was paying and I would be on site every day the build was going on. It was as if I had just committed a crime. Anyway, I shall keep all posted.
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:20 pm

It all sounds a bit odd. 300 K baht is a reasonable price, and you certainly can't grumble at that. Non-slip finish? Hmm... I only know of two. One is Beadcrete® which is horrendously expensive for a small domestic pool, because a) it costs well over 1,000 baht per m2 of floor and wall surface, and b) the Beadcrete company doesn't normally move for small jobs like this. If it were a large hotel pool where cost doesn't matter, that would be a different ball park. The only other non-slip that comes to mind is simple good old sandwash, called hinlang or sailang (as in ' high'') depending where you are in Thailand. You've already seen this everywhere, in porches, patios, shop front steps, pool surrounds, etc. It can certainly be used to cover the concrete steps going down into a pool, but I would be hesitant to line the whole pool with it, especially the walls. It's non-slip alright, but you could easily graze your skin on it when your skin gets soft after having been in the water for a while. It's cheap enough, cheaper than tiles actually, and easy to apply, though in Pattaya they rook people for anything up to 500 baht or more per m2. The stuff itself costs about 50 - 60 Baht per bag enough for 1 m2. Maybe they are talking about a pool coating that I've never heard of, or some special rough tiles - strange though, I thought I knew everything about building pools :wink:

It would be interesting to know if your pool is supposed to have a skimmer system, or an overflow system. The plumbing is slightly different and can impact significantly on the price because the overflow system needs a balance tank (sometimes also called a surge tank).

As for the delay, I may of course be wrongn but it does sound as if they have probably never built a pool quite like this before, and they don't want a meeting with the archi and with you around because there's going to be some loss of face.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:55 am

jazzman,
My pool will have a skimmer system, even though I made allowances for a surge tank in the garage (next to the pool). You cant see that marked in on my plans and it is called pump or some such simple name.
I have only ever seen one swimming pool inside a normal everyday house. The awe value was a ten out of ten. The envy value was also a ten out of ten. I swore way back some 40 years ago that if I could ever get the chance to build a house anywhere where it was hot, I would put in the awe and envy value. I actually think this might be a first for Thailand, other than the really rich and hotels and that's one of the reasons I'm doing it.
My architect has no idea, the engineer hums and hars and I'm willing to put-up with that, call endless meetings, get everyone on the same page and agreeing, just for that awe and envy value when I get visitors after the house is built. I do not want to be the first person to build a normal house with a pool inside in Thailand only to see another Titanic. And just imagine the "face" if the whole "team" is successful and does it properly the first time and the complete story is posted here. Now that's what I call face.
Maybe I should charge admission?
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:42 am

Building a pool inside a house is no big deal, and there are hundreds of examples. It must of course be built at the same time as the house and the excavation should be done and the piles sunk at the same time as the piles for the house. I suggest again that it is probably the first time that this particular pool builder has done it, and he does not want to lose face by admitting it. hence all the procrastination.

There a re of course other factors to take into consideratioin, such as damp and condensation, and the need for extremely accurate chemical feed (preferably automatic by saltwater chlorinator) to avoid a smell of chlorine in the house.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:44 am

jazzman,
I have two extractor fans that will be on a thermostat control panel, so that when the water reaches a certain temperature, they will cut-in automatically, but as the walls will be all double Superblock and the whole house will have air conditioning, I doubt they will ever be used, except to clear the air. There are three entrances to the pool through glass doors and if put in properly, there should be little or no smell in the house. I was in charge of all the sporting facilities at Puckapunyal, a very large army base in Australia and it had two olympic standard pools in a T shape. One was indoors and I spent a lot of time with the Public Works engineers so the smell of chlorine would not pervade the pool proper. You can't get rid of it all, but you can reduce it to livable levels.
If you know of a normal 3 bedroom house that has an indoor pool and can post the pictures I would be most interested.
The reason I want to do this build is because it is different and everyone must start somewhere.... so I guess that's once it's complete the architect, builder, engineer and pool man will all want the photos so they can say. "Yes, we know all about that sort of thing, it's rather simple really". Again, the wow factor....and look at the "face" involved.
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:11 pm

With modern pool equipment, if the chlorine level is correct, there should be no perceptible odor of chlorine whatsoever. It is extremely important to keep the ph at the right level for the chlorine to work properly. This is the thing most people ignore. if the poo is inside the house, it would be a good idea to buy a proper digital ph tester. They are not expensive and once calibrated, they are extremely accurate. Those plastic test tube thingies with the eye dropper and the coloured scale are pretty useless.
How to build a $20,000 / £14,000 house and a $???? MOTEL Updated 21 March 09 - with BOQ and costs
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby Nawty » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:29 pm

jazzman wrote:. if the poo is inside the house, .

nasty..
conwood is not real wood.....break it down 'con' to deceive...'wood'
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Re: base of pool / footins

Postby jazzman » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:22 am

I also do a roaring trade in poo testers ;)
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