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Re: solar energy

Postby schuimpge » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:58 pm

I noticed that Klondike posted a much more in depth description a few posts earlier..
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Re: solar energy

Postby Klondyke » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:46 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:Yes I do, salt. You can turn the water to steam using heat quite easily, you can extract the salt in doing so, but putting the water without the salt back into the sea is a disaster.


Sorry, I did not read all. Just to the salt: If the power plant will take the sea water for the cooling systems it will bring back to the sea again the same salt water.

If the power plant will desalinate the sea water for other pourposes - as I pointed out before - it does not bring any such un-salted water back. All of such precious water will be used off, nothing returned. I suppose that the sea around Songkla will not take a notice about that, will it?

Roger Ramjet wrote:Yes 7. I can see that you've never driven in Australia.

Yes, that's right, I have never been to Australia. However, I know something about steam power plants in Thailand, for years participating on project of MaeMoh (the biggest in SE Asia 2,400 MW), finally "punished" beeing sent for 2 years on Site to advice the owner with the construction (EGAT). The power plant needs a lot of water, stealing it from the poor water streams available in the area, however, never gives any back.

A water polution is never a problem, just the air. Even if the MaeMoh is refurbished by state-of-the-art desulpharization systems, unlike number of Australian power plants.

BTW, there was just one Australian company involved in the construction of MaeMoh power plant (beside one for the lignite mining), and it was for a water treatment of one unit. And I remember many problems to force them to follow the specs based on German-Swiss standards.

Roger Ramjet wrote: The seven extra plants can be located in the Great Sandy Desert and it would be like a needle in a haystack. They could also be dotted all over the outback without causing any damage at all.

I do not know how did you come to such conclusion. What I know about the star of Elon Musk his field is the storage of the electrical power, not the generation (but I might get it wrong), using his batteries for storage of alternative energies, such as solar or wind power.

E.g. a wind wheel can generate some 1 - 2 MW (once the wind is blowing). So, to substitute 2,200 would need a farm of 1,000 - 2,200 wind wheels. And a wind steadily blowing 24/7 throughout the year - what is really quite impossible in Thailand - so better 2,000 - 4,000 wind wheels made available for Mr. Musk to store the generated electric properly.

Not quite able to imagine such project.

BTW, construction of power plant of such extent would surely help to develop the poor area along the Songhkla coast impoverished in the last 20 -30 years by a wrong concentration on shrimp farming, that however, collapsed hugely, the abandoned fishering never renewed again.
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Re: solar energy

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:14 pm

I'm sorry, I agree with some things and strongly disagree with others. The whole point of this thread is to compare dirty coal with clean solar. The damage done to the ecosystem in extracting the coal and the track record of Adani.
I see nobody read my threads, especially not the one from the US about exactly what coal does produce when burnt. The mercury alone scares me, let alone the hydrocarbons
The battery Elton Musk has produced is to store electricity for times of overload, but if you look at all the inhospitable places in Australia, there are miles and miles of barren land that are suitable for solar arrays and wind farms. In fact if you had read the sites I provided you would have found that wind turbines are the ones actually powering up the batteries (battery).
The whole argument the Australian pollies put forward for not building the solar and wind farms was the cost of the cables to carry the power, but what wasn't said was the cables are actually in place and have been for years.
And now we have desalination plants being added and then salt added back. Seawater is water from a sea or ocean. On average, seawater in the world's oceans has a salinity of approximately 3.5%, or 35 parts per thousand. This means that for every 1 litre (1000 mL) of seawater there are 35 grams of salts (mostly, but not entirely, sodium chloride) dissolved in it. There are also some other impurities that need extracting.
The four biggest differences between the ocean & fresh water. Saltwater, which is found in earth's oceans and seas, is quite different from the freshwater contained within lakes, rivers and streams across the globe. Plant and animal species are adapted to live in one type of water or the other, but few can thrive in both. So adding salt to fresh water is not an option. Rather like adding cooking salt to a fish tank.....you'll just kill the fish. And I won't get into the damage that salt causes to close looped systems.
Adani want to strip mine the most fertile plains in Australia to extract dirty coal. They have done this in other countries and then just left, but this time it's a super mine and they want to transport the coal via rail lines hundreds of kilometres to the Great Barrier Reef and then transport it to Thailand, India, Indonesia, etc etc except none of the infrastructure is in place, so they have virtually demanded the Australian Government supply it at taxpayers expense for them. They do not have an EIS, well they did have, but it was thrown out by the High Court of Australia as rubbish.
And today it was revealed on the ABC website, the extent they have gone to (in bribes to pollies and local government) to get all this approved and each day a little bit more gets added by the watchdog groups and the press.
With the advances in solar batteries and solar power cells over the last 10 years you would think that governments would realise that the earth can be sustained without using polluting fossil fuels like coal. I would post what has happened in the south of Thailand from various websites but it would be deemed political and removed. I have to ask myself each day if the Thai government can afford to spend 3 billion (it might be 30 billion) on submarines, why they need to build a coal fired power plant in the south, when the whole country could be on solar and wind. Of course I know the answer, they must keep the fiefdoms and big business running.
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Re: solar energy

Postby Klondyke » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:17 pm

schuimpge wrote:To run that system, the plant uses river water to cool the condenser system. This external system is open and the big problem is that water leaves the plant at a higher temperature.
That increase in temperature is the most destructive part of such plant..it destroys river/marine life if not properly cooled down before release.
Long term sure the coal-burning is the biggest problem.

Cheers,
Luc


You have started correctly. However, about the river water cooling is quite wrong. In fact, there are few power plants using nearby river for the cooling, they are not so many left nowadays in the world. And they should not increase the river temperature by more than a 1/2 deg. C, so it is always only at a huge river.

That's not the case in Thailand. So, for the water to be cooled down before running back to the condenser a huge cooling towers are to be erected.

In colder countries you can see high beautifully shaped monsters where the air draft helps to cool down the water sprayed inside, without much energy spent.
Image


This would not work in hot countries where much lower structure is erected, however, with thousands of horizontal wooden lamels. The hot water is pumped on the flat roof with many holes letting the water to drop down onto the lamels whilst a mighty helicopture-like fan pull the air upwards against the water drop. The water collected in a basin underneath the tower structure is led back to the condenser. The more degree down, the better efficiency of the power plant.

Not so easy function in April days in the North Thailand when the ambient temperature is over 40 deg.C and the power demand is the highest of the year...
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Re: solar energy

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:17 am

I think people should read what they have written. One minute you are saying river water is used, the next you are saying salt water (but desalinated) and those cooling towers that give off plumes of vapour into the atmosphere (except in hot countries) where a different system is used.
To me it's all the same, it's years out of date technology when we live in the tropics with sunshine perhaps 200 days of the year and strong winds 200 days of the year. It gives me the impression of old men struggling to live in the past because that's how they made money then.
I think it's about time we started to listen to distinguished academics and what they have to say about solar power and wind power. Surely we have created enough of a mess with coal and nuclear power over the last 40 years that we can find alternatives.
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Re: solar energy

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:09 am

A start in the right direction and more are being commissioned for outback places. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-05/y ... re/9227288
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