Labor costs

Anything to do with prices. Raw material prices or prices for finished material (or labor such as well drilling). Project prices (how much will it cost??), etc.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL

Postby somdet » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:47 am

comment withdrawn
Last edited by somdet on Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thaifly » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:59 pm

jazzman wrote:
thaifly wrote:
rosegate wrote:
nickcar wrote:Jazzman
Thats a very interesting comment. 2000 baht a day over say a 5 month project (is that the normal time for a 175 sq meter house?) comes to 300,000 baht which is roughly 1700 baht per sq metre.


thaifly wrote: i engaged a building engineer to overlook the work at 2000...BAHT A WEEK....YES ...2000 BAHT AWEEK... he done a sterling job...i never engaged a consultant.


Thaifly, those a re really some excellent prices you got. It's difficult to find a Thai supervisor who will not bee in cahoots with the workers though. 2,000 baht would not cover the time for a farang onsultant to drive over to your place, unless he's a retireee doing you a favour.
ITS A BIG GIDDAY TO U JAZZMAN.......ITS THE THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM......refering to my building engineer i engaged at 8000 baht a month or 2000 baht a week....it was a FOREIGN ORDER job for him... he was HAPPY AS A LARK IN THE PARK.... to cop 80000 baht a month on the side...plus his own job salary.....so my reply should clear this matter up ....its looks as if i have had a huge slice of luck in this domain.....FAIR DINKUM JAZZMAN...i honestly thought i had paid him over the odds...but i am only a cowboy..in building world ITS A GIDDAY TO ALL ...FROM THE THAI FLY FROM MAE RIM
Nickar, the consulting fee for a house like Jazman's 156 m2 would have been 156,000. And his work would have saved me 750,000 on the origional contractror's quote of around 1.6 mil. 300,000 baht is nothing for the savings, security and quality control it gives you on a budget of 3,000,000.

Maybe even 2,000 baht a day is not enough either. However, there is little sense in shilliing for consultants on this board - most of the members are here because they want free advice (and many of us are quite happy to give it).
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Postby thaifly » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:27 pm

nickcar wrote:Rosegate,

Thank goodness my house isn't in pataya!! I can understand how in an area like that the builders might have a strong hold over pricing - I hope that isn't the case in nakhon nayok!! I find the subject very interesting as eventually I have to decide how big a house I can afford. I presume rosegate that you mean a total per sq metre price and not just labour. Would be interested to know what the going rate per sq meter would be there.

thaifly
thats a very interesting post. what are "LANNASTLE ROOFS"? what does "DOUBLE BRICK" mean? two layers of blocks? or maybe 2 layers of real bricks?

I presume when you say ".........the costs per sq meter for the above came to 2850 baht " you are referring to labour only - what did the total per sq meter come to?

Cheers
Nick


PS I know from reading the financial results of the big building companies that they consider a 35% profit margin a bad deal and really try for 45%. I understand also that an expert in the trade is going to do the job much cheaper than somebody like me :P
its a gidday to u nick ITS THE THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM ....IN REPLY TO YOUR POSTING...l my total sq meter price came to 12.500.baht....... and i spared nothing but the best ...... double brick ......two small bricks together.....lannastyle????.....my tongue is tied in answering this one ...maybe the jazzman might be kind enough to answer this one....one thing i can tell u that it is pang mark ...but it has made my buildings looking good as BO DEREK IN THAT MOVIE WAS IT CALLED 10 with dudley moore???? its a gidday to all FROM THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM
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Postby jazzman » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:42 pm

Nickar,

It would be interesting to know how you arrived at your figure of 300,000.
The build time on a standard single storey house that size will not be more than 15 weeks at the most for a team of five. That makes 180,000. A sum, which, even if you offered it to a builder's estimate to get him to give more quality, he'll take your money and you will still get the same.

Some people are lucky, like Thaifly. It's rare.

The real building time for a house is quite a bit longer because of things like public holidays, rice planting and harvesting, sows giving birth, grandparents passing away (a funeral here lasts for a week) and days where the builders just don't bother to turn up.
There are also the days when they turn up, but they work for an hour then watch the boxing on their portable TV - they probably wouldn't do this so much if there was someone around cracking a whip :twisted:
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Postby dozer » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:42 pm

I'm sure the pig & rice farmers are very nice people, but not sure they are totally qualified to build a luxury house?
Point taken, but let's remember that about 95% of the actual workers on site at any given time for any construction project anywhere in Thailand (Condo's, road projects, houses, etc.) are either former or current farmers from Issan province. All of the 'skilled' craftsman. That is just where the pool of construction workers comes from. Of course there has to be engineers, architects, etc but lets not be so quick to rule out pig farmers from our projects! It is buyer beware though, big or small company, checking out projects they have done in the past is the best insurance.
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Postby jazzman » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:16 pm

Very true Dozer

They may not have been to college, but have however learned their trade the traditional way - from father to son.

And as you say, it is imperative to check out their former work.
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Postby thaifly » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:43 pm

jazzman wrote:Very true Dozer

They may not have been to college, but have however learned their trade the traditional way - from father to son.

And as you say, it is imperative to check out their former work.
ITS A GIDDAY TO JAZZMAN AND DOZER ....its the thai fly from mae rim....i endorsed your comments re...PIG FARMERS ETC...becoming builders or tradesmen as well ...my building project was built by the people of the village of a small population of 150 inhabinats..... i still scratch my head in amazment...of the quality of work they gave me ...coming from such a small village.. ...taking in consideration of what has happen to me ...i wouldnt knock a pig farmer etc... turning into a tradesmen overnite as a previous posting suggests .......ITS A GIDDAY TO ALLL ...ITS THE THAIFLY FROM MAE RIM
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Postby nickcar » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:41 pm

Well lots of useful advice here. Yes of course its all about saving but one has enough common sense to know that I can't spend everyday at the site and I haven't the concrete building skills. ( I could build a wooden house though :wink:

So a consultant seems the way to go. That gives rise to 2 questions. How much can one expect from the consultant and how to find a good one in Nakhon Nayok? Re expectations - can one expect the consultant to source the supplies - and know that they will be as required without additional profit margin? Will he inspect the site at least once a day (as many have pointed out is essential) - choose the builder? etc in other words will he take over the whole hastle within his 2000 baht per day.

Re finding a good one - well I guess thats jumping the gun a bit as I am probably 6 months away from starting to build. Further I suppose it has to be someone within reasonable reach of my land - but that shouldn't be to bad as Rangsit ( near to Don muang airport) is not to far away. Word of mouth I suppose is the best bet - I will be lucky to find many farangs who have built around my area.

re my estimate of costs. Jazzman estimates 1000 baht per sq m for the consultant ( that's 78 days or just over 2 and half months - is it really that quick?) If I use Jazzmans figure of about 3700 baht per sq m and add 35% for increases in cost etc I get 5000 per sq m. add 1000 for the consultant and 1000 for luck gives me my 7000 baht per sq metre. I would of course allow about 20% for cost over runs etc giving me a possible figure of 8500 per sq meter. This is assuming of course that I will use materials around jazzmans standard - and I must allow extra if i want say more expensive windows etc.

How am I doing experts?

Regards
Nick
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Postby jazzman » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:22 pm

You're doing very well. If you were to learn everything that's been posted on this board and on Dozer's main pages about building a family house and were able to visit your own site for a few minutes each day while your house is being built, you won't even need a consultant - you know most the answers already :P

Do check my figures again, according to my calculation, the build time would be around four months, plus all the non-worked days. I have no idea where you will find a consultant for Nakhon Nayok. A BKK based expert would charge you the 2,000 just for a return journey to your site. BKK based consultants also charge around 8,000 baht per day.

Re expectations - can one expect the consultant to source the supplies - and know that they will be as required without additional profit margin? Will he inspect the site at least once a day (as many have pointed out is essential) - choose the builder? etc in other words will he take over the whole hastle within his 2000 baht per day.


The answer to most of these questions is probably yes, but why not ask one directly for advice or for a quotation? Try Rosegate at http://www.pattayahousebuilders.com for example - they advertize on this site. They may even be able to put you in touch with someone near you.

Unfortunately most potential clients tend to think that site visits are all they a re going to get for their money. A visit to a consultant's web site will probably put them right on that. There will however, almost certainly be other expenses and incidentals on top of that, such as petrol costs, communications and postage made on your behalf, fees paid on your behalf to different government agencies, and maybe even a little 'tea-money' to oil the process, but there will be no profit margins added to procurement or to the labour. Most consultants will will present you a monthly itemized bill with the original wholesalers' or service providers' invoices.

What many people also tend to forget is the potential savings a consultant can realise for his client on the original building estimate. The savings are often far greater than the consultant's own fee.
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Postby rosegate » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:57 am

The answer to most of these questions is probably yes, but why not ask one directly for advice or for a quotation? Try Rosegate at http://www.pattayahousebuilders.com for example - they advertize on this site. They may even be able to put you in touch with someone near you.

Unfortunately most potential clients tend to think that site visits are all they a re going to get for their money. A visit to a consultant's web site will probably put them right on that. There will however, almost certainly be other expenses and incidentals on top of that, such as petrol costs, communications and postage made on your behalf, fees paid on your behalf to different government agencies, and maybe even a little 'tea-money' to oil the process, but there will be no profit margins added to procurement or to the labour. Most consultants will will present you a monthly itemized bill with the original wholesalers' or service providers' invoices.


Jazzman, Thanks for the recomendation, but with my current workload here, I could not take on a job near BKK, for the same fee I charge in PTTY.
As you state a BKK based consultancy/project managment company is unlikley to be intrested either for 2000 baht a day?

Ref your last paragraph above, this is exactly right, most people just seem to think that all there getting for there money is a daily visit, as you have clearly stated it's not, there is a lot more involved & more as you have already mentioned
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Postby rosegate » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:09 am

dozer wrote:
I'm sure the pig & rice farmers are very nice people, but not sure they are totally qualified to build a luxury house?
Point taken, but let's remember that about 95% of the actual workers on site at any given time for any construction project anywhere in Thailand (Condo's, road projects, houses, etc.) are either former or current farmers from Issan province. All of the 'skilled' craftsman. That is just where the pool of construction workers comes from. Of course there has to be engineers, architects, etc but lets not be so quick to rule out pig farmers from our projects! It is buyer beware though, big or small company, checking out projects they have done in the past is the best insurance.


I apolgise, I was only trying to make a brief point, as you clearly state & I totally agree the best recomendation any builder can give you is by showing you some of his prevuios work & speaking to some of his previous clients if possible
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Postby nickcar » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:22 pm

Thaifly and jazzman
I seemed to have missed your answers to my previous posts.
Thaifly, I didn't realise that you meant lannastyle. This is presumably the style from the lanna period around chaingmai. If I remember rightly the most distinguishing feature was the double roof.
Yes your are correct about the movie 10 - I remember it well as I was falling about laughing and annoying some of the other viewers :)

Jazzman - I had made the very rough guess that building would take 5 months and forgot that nobody works 7 days per week. thus 5 months by 30 days by 2000 = 300,000. My eventual figure of 1000 baht per sq meter fits in reasonably well with your 180,000 baht estimate. By the way did I say 3,000,000.00 project? I was hoping to keep the house price down to 2,000,000.00 so that I have enough for swimming pool lakes, landscaping etc.
cheers
Nick
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Postby nickcar » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:31 pm

and here is my very amateurish efforts at a floor plan. Now about 190 sq metres and about 50 sq meters of covered patios.
Attachments
Drawing52002.gif
My Floor Plan
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Postby jazzman » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:25 pm

nickar wrote:
Jazzman - I had made the very rough guess that building would take 5 months and forgot that nobody works 7 days per week. thus 5 months by 30 days by 2000 = 300,000. My eventual figure of 1000 baht per sq meter fits in reasonably well with your 180,000 baht estimate. By the way did I say 3,000,000.00 project? I was hoping to keep the house price down to 2,000,000.00 so that I have enough for swimming pool lakes, landscaping etc.


No, Nickar, you didn't state your budget, but experience knows how much it costs to build a 270 m2 house - provided the owner does not go OTT on the finish and use lifestyle materials, fixtures and fittings.

Just as an example: If you have 10 million baht spare in the bank and you want to build a 3 mil house, no problems. However, if you have 3 mil in the bank and you want to build a 3 mil house, it doesn't actually follow the rules of a soundly financed project. There have been members of this board who have gone through this crisis by not knowing about the costs of all the other details, and a lot of farang houses are lying around Pattaya unfinished because the owner ran out of funds.

Actually, for the house on your interesting plan - which of course still does not include a lot of the necessary detail yet - a turn-key solution would be around 3.6 mil if you are lucky and use fairly basic materials. U-shape designs can cost up to 2 X the cost of a more conventional design. Alone the eaves overhang, patio and soffit here will cost around 90,500 baht.

With extremely careful planning and costing, even allowing the small investment for some consulting if you feel you need it, you may just be able to get it down to 2,000,000, because there are still some particular advantages about being where you are 5Nakhon Nayok), even if it is unlikely that a foreign consultant would be interested in coming all that way.

That would still leave you with enough for a small pool, but a pool firm will charge you 600,000 for the same small pool that a consultant will organise for around 350,000. Additionally, a perimeter wall will cost you about 1,000 per linear meter and the landscaping has its price too.

Two suggestions:
- read this entire thread through again from page 1, to hear all the pros and cons of using consultants.

- Go here :
http://coolthaihouse.com/cthpics/thumbnails.php?album=6
and here:
http://www.coolthaihouse.com/

to see how it can be done if you DIY it. Both these houses cost less than 1 mil baht.
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Postby somdet » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:00 pm

All I have to say about hiring a consultant is that at first they say 2000 baht a day. The they say 2000 baht plus gas. then they say 2000 baht just to show up, plus gas, then more for actually working, etc. No offense to those of you who happen to be consultants but to me it is just as bad trying to deal with someone whose language you barely speak and who might or might not be honest as it is to deal with someone who you understand perfectly well except that they speak out of the corner of their mouth and in half-truths constantly. Caveat Emptor.

I have decided to forego the consultant route and am putting my trust in a Thai contractor. The dude has been in the business for close to 30 years and has built everything from village shacks to large Catholic churches. He gave me a bid and when I told him that the prices for tiles and paint and bathroom fixtures were too high, he dropped them substantially. At this point the bid is at 1.34 million baht for a 181 sq. meter house including perimeter wall (130 meters) driveway (88 sq. meters) security bars, window screens, and kitchen cabinets. That's 7403 baht and a few satang per square meter. I am happy and confident that our project will run fairly smoothly once it begins.

My advice to you is to meet your neighbors, talk to them, get to know the neighborhood and people in it over the next 4-5 months. Then ask who the right guy to build a house in your neighborhood is. Why would or should you trust a farang in Thailand? I don't live in Pattaya so I haven't been brainwashed to believe that all Thais are dishonest wretches. That's just the fuzz and the politicians, but isn't that the case everywhere in the world?

Good luck.
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