Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Anything to do with prices. Raw material prices or prices for finished material (or labor such as well drilling). Project prices (how much will it cost??), etc.

Moderators: Sometimewoodworker, MGV12, BKKBILL

Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:16 pm

My wife has been quoted 1.9M Baht to build a 3 bed house in Sakon Nakhon. Not sure exactly how many SQM. I expect it does not have a full Western Kitchen. However from what I have seen of estates recently built in Sakon Nakhon the kitchens are acceptable bar an oven. I'm curious how much, if any, I would save by buying the materials myself and contracting a supervisor to hire and manage the labour, paid directly by me.
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby fredlk » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:20 pm

Tharae wrote:I'm curious how much, if any, I would save by buying the materials myself and contracting a supervisor to hire and manage the labour, paid directly by me.

You might save 10 or 20 percent but the amount of headaches, frustration and stress you'll bring upon yourself will make it not worth it in the end.
User avatar
fredlk
 
Posts: 5879
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:16 pm

fredlk wrote:
Tharae wrote:I'm curious how much, if any, I would save by buying the materials myself and contracting a supervisor to hire and manage the labour, paid directly by me.

You might save 10 or 20 percent but the amount of headaches, frustration and stress you'll bring upon yourself will make it not worth it in the end.


If that is all it is then I agree it begs the question why would you bother on a low cost house. So long as the builder doesn't go short on material quality. But that should be able to be locked away as part of the specs in the contract. (Y/N?)
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby fredlk » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:33 pm

Tharae wrote:So long as the builder doesn't go short on material quality. But that should be able to be locked away as part of the specs in the contract. (Y/N?)

Then you will have to be on site at all times to ensure that the contractual quality is being delivered.
User avatar
fredlk
 
Posts: 5879
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:37 am

fredlk wrote:
Tharae wrote:So long as the builder doesn't go short on material quality. But that should be able to be locked away as part of the specs in the contract. (Y/N?)

Then you will have to be on site at all times to ensure that the contractual quality is being delivered.


Most of what I have read here suggests that it is not such a good idea for Falang to hang around all day on building site making a nuisance. Rather have the wife do that and Falang come back in the evening to inspect - no different to building a house in Australia really - have to watch them every step of the way.

The other option I had considered was to appoint a project superintendent, perhaps a trusted family member who has some building knowledge to oversee and negotiate the hard stuff if required. ( I have built seven houses from "owner builder"to tendering out to straight project builder, so I'm not starting from scratch, though I'm cognisant of the fact that things are done differently in Thailand). The village is not that large and I and my wife want to be able to live in it harmoniously afterwards. Thoughts?
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby fredlk » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:03 am

Tharae wrote:appoint a project superintendent, perhaps a trusted family member who has some building knowledge to oversee and negotiate the hard stuff if required.

Good luck finding someone suitable.
P.S. Read elsewhere on this site the negative views on using family when building.
User avatar
fredlk
 
Posts: 5879
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Roger Ramjet » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:22 am

Tharae wrote:Most of what I have read here suggests that it is not such a good idea for Falang to hang around all day on building site making a nuisance. Rather have the wife do that and Falang come back in the evening to inspect - no different to building a house in Australia really - have to watch them every step of the way.

I wonder where you read that? It's a great idea to hang around all day, in fact I would say it's mandatory. The times I was running around ordering stuff was the time when walls got built in the wrong place (pantry), undercoat was not applied, placing of plumbing pipes, the list is endless.......and I had a good builder who just got greedy after the floods. You MUST be there all day, every day, or they'll do their own thing which can take weeks to fix because they won't fix it, they'll paper around it.
I bought the whole crew a tape meassure and level, gloves, safety glasses and a whole heap more and I had copies of the plans in every room in the house and it still wasn't enough, I was on the phone to my wife and daughter half the day having things done properly. Give them just one inch and they'll take a mile.
User avatar
Roger Ramjet
 
Posts: 5281
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby pipoz » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:18 pm

Tharae wrote:
fredlk wrote:
Tharae wrote:So long as the builder doesn't go short on material quality. But that should be able to be locked away as part of the specs in the contract. (Y/N?)

Then you will have to be on site at all times to ensure that the contractual quality is being delivered.


Most of what I have read here suggests that it is not such a good idea for Falang to hang around all day on building site making a nuisance. Rather have the wife do that and Falang come back in the evening to inspect - no different to building a house in Australia really - have to watch them every step of the way.

The other option I had considered was to appoint a project superintendent, perhaps a trusted family member who has some building knowledge to oversee and negotiate the hard stuff if required. ( I have built seven houses from "owner builder"to tendering out to straight project builder, so I'm not starting from scratch, though I'm cognisant of the fact that things are done differently in Thailand). The village is not that large and I and my wife want to be able to live in it harmoniously afterwards. Thoughts?


It really depends on your individual situation or personal circumstances, as to which way you go.

For some Expats-Farangs it is not commercially viable to sit on the site and oversee some Thai Builder for the 3 - 6 months. For others who may have retired it may well work. Each to his own

If you can afford to waste your time watching the snail pace of the Thai builder, then yes you find another way to best manage the situation-build from a distance or on a part time basis. If you have time up your sleeve to finish, then follow Mikes example and do it in stages, where you can pop in and pop out, arrange the materials while you are there and then just let them build from point to point.

The problem comes when you want to get a Builder to do most if not all of the build. Because then the Thai Builder will want to buy most of the materials so that he can scam/skim on them and make some extra money. With you buying the materials and him effectively working for labour only, it doesn't really work for him. Few Thai Builders will do that for you, because there is just not enough money in the build for them, that way.

The next problem with having a Thai Builder do all is that he wants to do it as quickly as possible and then move onto the next Farang Victim and usually he demands money up from to pay his last debt or buy his new pick-up. He then spend what he has left on buying your materials.

Don't kid yourself he will not honor the Contract if he runs out of money or starts to may a loss on the labour only side. He will expect and ask you to make up the extra difference.

Some Expats have had success with their Thai Builders and some not. I suspect those who have had success have been lucky or they have paid a bit more and gone for a Builder with some reputation and professionalism.
So your option appear to Options as follows,

1.Full Build: Engage a reputable Thai Builder to do the total Build for you (he buys materials to your specification and arranges his labour). You will probably pay around the TB 18,000 – 22,00 per m2
2.Engage a Thai Building on a labour only basis and you arrange to buy and deliver all material. Then you can attend part time or visit in stages. Be prepared to accept that you will not get exactly what you want.
3.Somewhere in between 1 and 2, if you can find a compromising Thai Builder.
4.Part Build: Sit on site as an Expat supervisor and don’t earn an income for that time (say 6 month loss of income) if you are going for Option 2 or 3 and your are thinking of buying some of the materials
5.Part Build: Engage someone to act on your behalf to oversee the Thai Builder and or assist you in buying some materials, if you are going for Option 2 or 3. Be prepared to accept that you will not get exactly what you want.
6.Build in Stages: You visit the site when you can and effectively build it in stages, say pay a Thai Builder a Lump Sum to build the structure and then take over with you buying the roofing finishes materials and finding Thai Subcontractors for the remainder (Take more time say 9 months to build), if you are going for Option 2 or 3. Needs some patience.

Others on the Forum may have some more suggestions on what options you can take and their advice on the pros and cons of each


Me, I am trying Option 6, because commercially it is much more viable for me to work and just pop into the site every two months to arrange the basics.

So, I am paying a Local Thai Builder to build my Structure, with the TG looking over his shoulder and even then I didn’t get exactly what I wanted or drew, but it is close enough and I can live with it. That took six weeks.

Now I will pay a more professional Company to do my Roof Frame, Insulation and Tiling. I will probably pay a bit more than the normal market price, but still I can sleep, knowing it won’t fall in on me. This will take 2 months from Order to Finish via HOMEMART

Then I move on to finding some reliable Thai Subcontractors (through the major Suppliers) for the services and finishes and will pay a bit more for their labour than normal, plus pay a bonus, as I will be buying the finishes materials. I expect this will take 4 -6 months.

Hope this give you some idea of the plus 7 minus of building in Thailand.

pipoz
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:20 pm

Appreciate the response Pipoz. I'll be retired when the house is built. So I can be around all day, everyday. My wife is paying for the house, she has a job in Oz and most of her salary goes the the building fund. So in that sense it isn't a Falang's house. Although I have no doubt it will inevitably be seen that way.

So Option 4,5 or 6 is feasible for me. When you say you have the structure built and take over with the roof finishes. Do you mean have the brickwork to plate height without any of the roof completed and nothing else (no power, water or sewerage run ins)?

18,000 - 22,000 TB/Sqm is a bit alarming. Going down the path of Option 6 with a medium spec finish what would you estimate the building cost per sqm?
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:43 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Tharae wrote:Most of what I have read here suggests that it is not such a good idea for Falang to hang around all day on building site making a nuisance. Rather have the wife do that and Falang come back in the evening to inspect - no different to building a house in Australia really - have to watch them every step of the way.

I wonder where you read that? It's a great idea to hang around all day, in fact I would say it's mandatory. The times I was running around ordering stuff was the time when walls got built in the wrong place (pantry), undercoat was not applied, placing of plumbing pipes, the list is endless.......and I had a good builder who just got greedy after the floods. You MUST be there all day, every day, or they'll do their own thing which can take weeks to fix because they won't fix it, they'll paper around it.
I bought the whole crew a tape meassure and level, gloves, safety glasses and a whole heap more and I had copies of the plans in every room in the house and it still wasn't enough, I was on the phone to my wife and daughter half the day having things done properly. Give them just one inch and they'll take a mile.


Appreciate your response Roger. Looks like I'm gonna be onsite all the time. In which case I could subbie it out (with some guidance).
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby pipoz » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:31 pm

Tharae wrote:Appreciate the response Pipoz. I'll be retired when the house is built. So I can be around all day, everyday. My wife is paying for the house, she has a job in Oz and most of her salary goes the the building fund. So in that sense it isn't a Falang's house. Although I have no doubt it will inevitably be seen that way.

So Option 4,5 or 6 is feasible for me. When you say you have the structure built and take over with the roof finishes. Do you mean have the brickwork to plate height without any of the roof completed and nothing else (no power, water or sewerage run ins)?

18,000 - 22,000 TB/Sqm is a bit alarming. Going down the path of Option 6 with a medium spec finish what would you estimate the building cost per sqm?


When I say structure, its as per the attached picture. Is a reinforced concrete structure from Foundations up to Concrete Ring Beam (on which I will fix my roof trusses). Its probably over designed (by me) and worked out to around TB 3,975 per m2 of building foot print area. I overpaid because I wasn't there.

If I had designed it a bit more economically, bought the materials myself, supervised it myself and paid some guys on a day labour basis (at TB 500 per worker per day), then I think I could have built the structure only part, for around TB 2,850 - 3,000 per m2 of Building Footprint area. My Building Footprint area is 151 m2

The structure took 31 work days to build from survey-setting out up to last concrete pour to the RC roof ring beam, but I would allow 45 days if it was just me and a few day labour guys. I had an average of 6 workers on site every day (186 man days in total) plus a builder supervisor for 31 days. Plus I paid for a further 3 days of rain.

So all up 204 worker days and 34 days of supervision.

My estimate of his labour-supervision cost was 34 Days x TB 500 + 34 Days x TB 1000 = TB 136,000

pipoz
Attachments
Picture 001.jpg
RC Structure
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:16 pm

Thanks Pipoz.

OK, now I understand what you mean by structure. I'm planning a similar sized build. What do you estimate your finished cost per sqm to be? Did you engage an architect to produce a set of working drawings?
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby pipoz » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:48 pm

Tharae wrote:Thanks Pipoz.

OK, now I understand what you mean by structure. I'm planning a similar sized build. What do you estimate your finished cost per sqm to be? Did you engage an architect to produce a set of working drawings?


I will tidy up my cost plan and send you a copy in excel on Saturday. That way you can change your rates for various finishing materials and it will automatically recalculate your estimated cost

My costs will work out to about TB 12,800 per m2 (US 400 per m2) of House Footprint area, but then I am going for a higher quality roof system (Fabricated Truss and CPAC Neustile roof tile system) and also spending a bit more than normal on the ceilings, floor tiles and external porch area.

I suspect that if I were to input some more modest material rates of medium quality finishes, my build cost would come down to around TB 10,500 - 11,500 per m2 of House Footprint area, but I wish to be a little extravagant with some of the internals finishes.

PS There is no Kitchen in my build, as that comes in the second stage

Re Architect: No I didn't need to engage one

pipoz
User avatar
pipoz
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 pm
Location: Udon Thani Sometimes

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Mike Judd » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:20 pm

I was quite successful with my build with out any Architect drawings ,just sketches and measurements at each stage for my 2 guys who dug out the footings after I pegged them out and we had checked for square etc; I mean you work out how big all the rooms are that you want on a piece of paper and where you want them. This is easier with a single storey of course as you have no stair well to worry about which needs a lot planning to make sure there is enough room for the correct height steps. The column starter steel went in with the footings, then all the septic and waste water pipes were laid before laying the floor slab which had one course of Thai concrete blocks as permanent formwork on top of the footings at the edge. This was done in one month on my trip over.This was done with just my 2 guys tying steel and a couple of extra Lab when concreting. I then set them up with all the materials to form up and pour twenty columns 3.4mt high X 20c.m. square until my next visit 6months later.That month was spent arranging for the steel sections on top of all the columns (No ring beam in concrete) this was then ready for the Smart truss which I contracted out ,also the roof tiles , all through Home Mart. That month was spent organising and ordering materials mainly ,( plus one week down on Samui for a break.) The next trip again for the 30 days non visa I got all the walls built in Q-Con, while I put all the plumbing water pipes in to where they would be needed. Next trip the windows and doors were contracted out and the same contractor did the eave linings and all the ceilings inside. I also bought all the floor and bathroom tiles while there and left my 2 guys to lay them when I left.
My last trip for 2 months this time in April was spent with outside work ,Septic tank connecting , digging a hole for a dam/inground water tank and all the paths /drain around the house, and of course having a western style Kitchen installed. All the tiling was O.K. except for 2 minor bits of stupidity, I had bought those new stainless 1 mt long floor drains, to go at the shower entrance, ! bathroom was O.K. but for some reason he didn't bother to square it off of the wall in the other bathroom (T.I.T. ) I made him cut it out and redo it .
There other thing was the Power points on the wall, he cut the tiles around the P.P. instead of the box , looks terrible to me, but I suppose he didn't want to take off the P.P. I will have to get a surround plate to mount the P.P.on as the screws are long enough. Too many really big tiles there to take off.
All of this has been over a few years but there is no reason it couldn't have been continuous, the main criterion is having guys you can trust when not on site , mine were relatives but I was able to break them in
with earlier jobs like the front wall and the garage to set the standards, plus they were pretty used to Thai building as far as steel fixing /concreting/block laying and tiling was concerned. My T.G.'s brother kept a tally of what ever days they worked at Baht400 per day and then 500 recently, and as mentioned my solution for workers for other trades was to go out to the big new housing estates around Khon Kaen, check their work out and get a price from them. I hope this rather long winded account is maybe of some help, but as every one else has said, being on site and at least keeping an eye on things as much as possible is the safest bet, even in OZ you need someone with a vested interest on site, no one else is bothered, it's not their baby.!
Mike Judd
 
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:31 am
Location: Church Point Sydney N.S.W. Australia. Khon Kaen

Re: Building Costs in Sakon Nakhon

Postby Tharae » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:39 am

pipoz wrote:
Tharae wrote:Thanks Pipoz.

OK, now I understand what you mean by structure. I'm planning a similar sized build. What do you estimate your finished cost per sqm to be? Did you engage an architect to produce a set of working drawings?


I will tidy up my cost plan and send you a copy in excel on Saturday. That way you can change your rates for various finishing materials and it will automatically recalculate your estimated cost

My costs will work out to about TB 12,800 per m2 (US 400 per m2) of House Footprint area, but then I am going for a higher quality roof system (Fabricated Truss and CPAC Neustile roof tile system) and also spending a bit more than normal on the ceilings, floor tiles and external porch area.

I suspect that if I were to input some more modest material rates of medium quality finishes, my build cost would come down to around TB 10,500 - 11,500 per m2 of House Footprint area, but I wish to be a little extravagant with some of the internals finishes.

PS There is no Kitchen in my build, as that comes in the second stage

Re Architect: No I didn't need to engage one

pipoz



Appreciate the response Pipoz. The spreadsheet would be most useful. Based quoted upon builder costs of $18k to 22k/sqm the savings you're achieving are more in the order of 35%, which does make a stronger case for owner building. The challenge I am going to have is the lack of indepth knowledge of the building process, esp in Thailand. So I expect I may not be able to avoid at least engaging a project superintendent to assist.
Tharae
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Next

Return to material prices & building costs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest