What Clients Want and What It Should Cost

Anything to do with prices. Raw material prices or prices for finished material (or labor such as well drilling). Project prices (how much will it cost??), etc.

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What Clients Want and What It Should Cost

Postby the limey » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:16 pm

[Topic title changed by moderator for better visibility]

Now as we all know I'm a contractor here, basically most of the problems are caused by the customer of having no idea of what he actually wants, a job we are doing now has gone from a 50,000baht job to nearly a million baht job just due to the customer not actually knowing what he wants.
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Re: Customers in Thailand

Postby cruzing » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:41 pm

the limey wrote:Now as we all know I'm a contractor here, basically most of the problems are caused by the customer of having no idea of what he actually wants, a job we are doing now has gone from a 50,000baht job to nearly a million baht job just due to the customer not actually knowing what he wants.


From what I understand from some thai builders, that is pretty much the norm here. When someone wants to build a house they say Oh I like that on that house and this on that house over there and tell them how big etc. and the builder has to figure it out. :shock:

Cruzing
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Postby simon » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:11 pm

Hi guys,
My girlfriend and I want to build a house near Korat, I have absolutley no idea what it entails, but we know basically what we want, ie.3 beds, 2 bathrooms, kitchen and living room with dining area, also, a car space with a roof.

What my girlfriends Mother has found is that builders arent able to give a quote for what we need. I have around 700k - 800k to spend. The way it looks is, my girlfriend gives money to the builder to buy cement, materials etc etc, but my problem is, I need to know how much roughly we need to pay to build to completion, I cant be having extra costs at the end, where I may not be able to pay and therefore their family not have the finished house.

If I was after a bungalow of roughly 13m x 15m, with the above specs, would a builder be able to give me a rough estimate to how much it may cost? I understand that the internal specs will have to be added or worked out, but...

Hopefully you guys being builders will have a general idea of costs etc.

In fact do you guys work outside Bangkok at all? We will need a decent builder.

Cheers

Simon
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Postby the limey » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:18 pm

yes simon, that will be 1.2 million baht :)

now would you like the windows double glazed? how much would you like to spend on roof insulation?

heheheh only kidding, reckon on out there about 6,000baht per sq met building cost.
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Postby simon » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:22 am

Hi mate,

Cheers for that. So thats what I should be asking the builder, how much per m? for him to build? To get an idea that is!

My girlfriend has land of around 400m?, she wants something thats around 13m x 15m..but thats around 195m? yeah...thats gonna be too much for me I reckon!

We have a company who have offered a design at 14m x 19m and priced it at 880k, does that sound reasonable?

If I could lend money from Thailand, I would be able to afford more, but I havent found any bank that will do this, do you know of any?

Your help is greatly received...by the way are you in thailand now?

Cheers

Simon
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sounds cheap

Postby dozer » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:46 am

Hi Simon;

That sounds cheap enough at about 4500 per sq. meter. What I would be more concerned about is construction quality as you go. What will the walls be constructed of? Depth of pillar post holes? windows, roof insulation, roof - tile or synthetic, central hot water, etc.

From experiences of friends banks aren't worth dealing with here.....
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Postby simon » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:17 pm

Actually its cheaper than 4500 per m? as its the 14 x 19 that was quoted at 880k. That works out at 3308 per m?.

Is there a list of materials I would need to build a bungalow, on a website somewhere, but in English. My girlfriend i s going through a Thai website and looking at materials and costs etc, but I would like to know what I am looking at in English!

It seems I am not going to get an approximate price as the builder is a friend of hers and wont be able to give a price, this worries me, as I dont know how much is needed!

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Simon
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Postby the limey » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:04 pm

Roofing is your main expense, this can vary from 500baht to 2,500baht depending on the weight and size of the tiles per square meter, the rest is all structural so the cost is pretty much standard, but underneath your roof can also work out expensive, this done in teak wood strips reckon on about 900baht per square meter.

Image


Image

Just the wood work around and under this roof is about a quarter of a million baht or more.
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Dream palace

Postby robint » Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:13 am

:D

Well in the Khorat area, costs are considerably less than Pappaya

For 800k you too can have a palace (but that depends on your definition of palace)

Local guys can build a family house for 50K (labour) but you have to do a lot of work yourself and be on site the whole time.

You should be able to build your basic house for 500k (buy your own materials) but iut will be

simple corrugated sheet roofing
stndard wood windows, doors etc
simple ktichen sink and work top
bungalow villa construction

Image

like this one

having said that, mine is falling down all over the place as already reported here, but that was bad building methods rather than design 10 years ago
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escalating to heaven

Postby robint » Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:42 am

:D

Cor Blimey

Well your the Builder, I am the designer and we live at opposite ends of the spectrum

In the ideal world, the Client should commission the designer to

outline the requirements
agree the scop of work
produce a bid document
go out to bid from builders
produce a detailed build spec
Bill of materials
construction and payment plan
Procurement plan
site supervision
final inspection and handover

Armed with these plans and instructions the builder can get on with his work efficeintly without Client interference

Love is all around

I am sure you know all this, so why the 'ell doesnt it ever happen.

All through my professional life, the designer get the short straw and never has the time and opportuinity to do his work properly to everyones benefit?

Architects and hairdressers only produce pretty water colours for 10% of the contract pricew. and not much else. All the other functions are supposedly in the scope of the builder. With the best will, the builder really can't be expected to perform many of these other functions and the Client doesnt know how.

I have been trumpeting the design cause for some time on this Forum but no one seems to pick up on it.

In big projects the above person is called the managing contractor and is employed by the Client to supervise the whole job from strat to finish. Of course said contractor is not popular with cowboys and cost cutters but in a straight contest, everyone wins and comes out smiling

Even though the MC is employed by the Client, he is also there to ensure that the Client fully understands his liability to contrat conditions. If he changes the spec after design approval, it will cost him in time and money and he will be made completly aware of the impact. Generally the Client has no contact with the CC

Well thats what we used to do

:roll:
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Postby the limey » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:03 am

Unfortuneately the clients here tend to drink too much and forget about the extras they ordered :) one of them I had sign a contract, 2 days before the end of the job he said he was not going to pay the final payment as the job took too long,I asked to see the contract we had both signed< i still had over a month to complete the project on the contract date that we had signed on, we finished in the next two days and he apologised profusely for being a drunken twat that don't know what day or month it is, another example is when the customers show their friends round the place and walk on freshly laid tiles, this tends to move the tiles a bit so they do not look so good, I had that problem with one of the most famous restaurants here in Pattaya, the drunken asshole would take half a dozen of his fat mates for a walkabout each evening, at this time we were tiling the hallways, I explained to them all not to walk in the hallways on the new tiles, they fcuking did, next day the customer is complaining to me about the bad tiling, yes I did see them all walking on our freshly laid tiles, did he want to pay for them to be relaid? of course he didn't.
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Klutsy Klients

Postby robint » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:33 am

Hi Blimey

Traditionaly in the Trade, you and I as the BC and MC would likely argue like cat and dog throughout the project, but we would be united in certain aspects

a) the desire to see a good job done on time and on budget

b) get paid

c) keep the client out of the way and charge him for variations

d) always keep the payment schedule in our favour - ie we are always ahead of the game

Of course busines may be conducted across bar stools but it should be properly sealed in the sobriety of an office the following day

A lot of the problems you experience are due to the limitations of being the BC (or construction contractor CC) and no fault on your part.
:?
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Re: escalating to heaven

Postby cruzing » Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:30 am

robint wrote::D
Architects and hairdressers only produce pretty water colours for 10% of the contract pricew. and not much else. All the other functions are supposedly in the scope of the builder. With the best will, the builder really can't be expected to perform many of these other functions and the Client doesnt know how.
:roll:


Most architects in Thailand may only be concerned with how the house will look when complete and you get no useable drawings for plumbing etc. etc. But when you just say architects you are generalizing, and painting the whole profession in your color scheme. The same way I would be if I said all foreign men that come to Thailand are overweight, don't wear a shirt out in public and stink!!! Is that fair, I think not.

And, this notion of keeping the customer away from the building site, the one who is paying you I might add, gets right up my nose. (as my dear british friend in America says) Granted you are going to have to deal with some jerks walking on newly laid tile, but they either have to pay to redo it or live with. How many times do builders here pay to redo something that they have ruined totally or done wrong or just plain screwed up??? I haven't run across any. It's the CUSTOMER that has to pay.

So get off your high horse!

Cruzing
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Re: escalating to heaven

Postby robint » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:42 pm

cruzing wrote:
robint wrote::D

The same way I would be if I said all foreign men that come to Thailand are overweight, don't wear a shirt out in public and stink!!! Is that fair, I think not.

Cruzing


Well thats a fair assessment, I wouldnt argue with that, but they are often called "handsome man", which is I guess why they come over here?

It's the CUSTOMER that has to pay.


No, pay attention, Its the Flang who has to pay, and you better get used to it in the LOS


So get off your high horse!


You should try it up here some time, its fun


btw

WHY are you so persistently agressive towards me, are you harbouring a secret crush?

If you can't stand the heat, get back in the kitchen






:)
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Re: Customers in Thailand

Postby robint » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:49 pm

the limey wrote:Now as we all know I'm a contractor here, basically most of the problems are caused by the customer of having no idea of what he actually wants, a job we are doing now has gone from a 50,000baht job to nearly a million baht job just due to the customer not actually knowing what he wants.


hi Limey/Simon

I did a bit of hoemwork on this and it appears things have moved on since i last did anything ukwise

the latest model contracts can be found on

http://www.ricsbooks.com/default.asp

from the Chartered Surveyers crowd (QS's)

I am not suggesting these should be applied in a blanket fashion, but at least you have the basis covering most of the usual points in building a simple house for a client, no point trying to re-invent the wheel

The original model form i referred to came from the Institute of Civil engineers and is 30 years old - like me :D
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