pumps and well....advice please?

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pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Mon May 18, 2015 9:54 pm

It is a while now we have owned a small hilltop with great views.
Should have a little cabin up but not yet.
We are concentrating on getting water up there and electricity.

Many months ago we got a well dug.
Sadly the guys who dug it's pump would not perform on the day so they could not dig as deep as wanted.
We are now getting on with things.
A borehole digging/water system guy friend of friend of missus came along to give an opinion today.

There are 5 rings (45cm depth each) under ground level and two over.
At this dry time the first three rings below ground are dry, and the water covers the bottom two i.e. bit under a metre of water.
The borehole guy got a piece of old bamboo and "sounded" the bottom, twisting the pole.
It was clearly audible that it was in sand.

Now i have heard that sand is what you want, and yes the borehole guy then said if he were us he would simply dig another metre and see if it refills fast enough when pumped out.
We will do that.

What he also said was we would need three pumps and as well as a tank at the top, a tank at the bottom.
The bottom pump would pump through some filter material (another tank?) into the bottom holding tank. (He recommended Hitachi 200w about 6000bt)
The "big" pump would then push up the hill to the top tank....we're saying 30metres head. The guy mentioned 12,000bt.
The top pump is for house pressure.

I was kind of surprised about this bottom pump and the filtering.

We then went to a shop in Chiangrai which sells lots of pumps.
The auntie-like lady immediately started drawing it all out and explaining things to the missus.
She seemed repeat seemed highly knowledgable.
She said we don't need the first pump, we can just suck straight from the well with the big one and straight up hill.

She then showed us a couple of Italian pumps, Pedrollo and Saer, which missus has details on her phone, but i think ran about 1250watts. I think one was 7200bt.

So instead of 6000bt plus 12000bt and having to build filter tanks and recharging them sometimes, we would be spending 7200 for the pump and saving some work.

Any comments on any of the above.....the depth of well, the extra pump and it's necessity, the quality of those brands......would be most welcome, we at last want to get on with this and it's not our field of expertise at all.

Thanks v much
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Klondyke » Tue May 19, 2015 8:13 pm

Hi,
for me it is quite too much to follow exactly where is the problems, perhaps you should sketch it in a simple way.
In general, if the well water is OK (more or less) you can suck it by an automatic pressure pump (e.g. Mitsubishi 4,000 - 5,000 Baht) that will keep the pressure in your house water system. The pump should be selected to be able to suck from that present depth.

If not able and the water level is not deeper than 9 m, you can suck it by a simple piston pump (ca. 3,000 Baht) driven by a separate motor over a belt, seen and heard at many village houses. For a deeper depth you will need a special submersible pump (ca. 10,000 Bht).

The case No. 2 and 3 above should have an additional storage tank, you can buy plastic 1,500 - 2,000 L , the automatic pressure pump should take the water from there.

Before the water is led to the house, it should go through a pressure sand filter vessel that is possible backwashed after some time.

A regular (1 - 2 weeks) addition of a chlorin (a spoon) should be applied Into any storage tank.
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue May 19, 2015 9:22 pm

Cheeryble wrote:She said we don't need the first pump, we can just suck straight from the well with the big one and straight up hill.

That would depend on the flow rate of the well.
Both solutions are fine (I'm no expert) the single pump and storage tank is what we used in Australia.
If you wanted to go "high tech" you could always pump using a windmill but you'd have to lock it down when the tank was full. There's even instructions on how to build your own: http://www.google.co.th/search?client=s ... uQSr1YC4Cw
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Klondyke » Wed May 20, 2015 9:34 am

With this kind of automatic pump (that keeps the water pressure in your house system) you do not need any high water tower. There is a great choice of such pumps (also other brands) everywhere.

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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Wed May 20, 2015 9:40 am

Thanks for responses....

Obviously I would prefer to not have a storage tank/filter next to the well if possible, and would prefer to install just the bigger uphill pump.

Roger you say it depends on the flow rate of the well.

Assuming the suction pipe from the well runs dry for any reason, is there some sort of flow switch to tell the pump to shut down before it gets damaged from running dry?

Is it in the pump or I have to hook one up?
(Ps below is one of the pumps suggested by the lady 7200 baht its Italian Pedrollo who I see sell 2 million pumps per year so they must be pretty serious.)
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Wed May 20, 2015 9:51 am

Klondyke wrote:With this kind of automatic pump (that keeps the water pressure in your house system) you do not need any high water tower. There is a great choice of such pumps (also other brands) everywhere.

Image


Yes, thanks Klondyke

We intend to have a holding tank at the top of the hill next to the house.
Don't want to build a tower so hope to sit the tank just high enough so if electricity fails the water will at least dribble fast into basins etc.....maybe a metre of head.....and enough for emergency watering of plants.
Normally of course we would use a pump up here to give nice pressure.....maybe the one you suggest.

That said I would like to have an old fashioned "Ong" as the tank.
I like the looks, they can be painted by hand like an art piece, they're cold, and they're very cheap.
What's not to like?
Well.....the weight, about 400kg

It will need a "stand" or base to be built, maybe on concrete rings lined with bricks.
Question is....can the guys delivering lift the Ong up those extra feet or are they only able to get it down off the truck/pickup then manoeuvre it around a bit such as I have normally seen in the old village houses like Mum's where it sits just 6inches above ground level?
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed May 20, 2015 10:51 am

Cheeryble wrote:Roger you say it depends on the flow rate of the well.

Assuming the suction pipe from the well runs dry for any reason, is there some sort of flow switch to tell the pump to shut down before it gets damaged from running dry?

As I said I am no expert, but there are a number of experts here who deal with pumps as a profession who can answer your questions in depth.
I have two storage tanks, town water supply and an overlarge Hitachi pump. At the twonhouse I have a small tank, town water supply and a Mitsubishi pump similar to the one shown by klondyke. The problem I found at the townhouse was the return valve not working the whole time, which sent the water from the mains into the tank, then back into the mains each time it failed, and it failed so many times and had to be cuttout that there was not enough pipe left to put in a new one. Which meant starting from scratch all over again. And then the fittings for the tank (galvanised steel) rusted through, the tank ball and valve failed and in the end I gave up.
The reason I asked about the amount of flow from the well you have is because of the second question you asked. Will the pump shutdown when it runs dry, which I can't answer, but some mebers (where's Ians when you need him?) can and will give you a detailed answer.
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Wed May 20, 2015 11:05 am

Thanks Roger
Let's hope for some expert advice
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Ians » Wed May 20, 2015 12:29 pm

Really need some real physical data before starting.
How deep is your well from ground level to the lowest level the well is likely to reduce to?
What is the difference in height between ground level at the well to your discharge point on the "hilltop" ?
How far from the well to the hilltop (distance)
will you have a storage tank on the hilltop - how high is the tank?
There are many configurations you can look at - what is the best depends on what you are trying to achieve and personal preference.
As for what's in the ground as far as water is concerned can also be a problem - with water close to ground level it could be contaminated by all sorts of things, sewage, pesticides - who knows what else. What is likely yield available from the "well" for pumping all year round (including the dry session).
It could well be economical to install a proper well with a submersible well pump 20 / 30 meters below ground level with a pressure tank located at the house - this will depend on ground conditions, water availability and water quality, using this approach you can pump direct to the house with a U.V or R.O unit installed for your drinking and cooking water supply.

Don't skimp / penny pinch on the installation or equipment- if you want trouble free operation, water when you need it spend some money - cheap installation and s**t equipment will only cause you headaches - look at the long term requirement and consider the costs over this period.

Let me know your thoughts and we can discuss further.
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Klondyke » Wed May 20, 2015 1:00 pm

There are surely few types of water level switch for supervizing the lowest level when sucking the water from a tank (or for the highest level when filling in), for 300 - 500 Baht at any hardware shop. With 2 hanging swimmers for adjusting the 2 levels. Or a different swimmer as a red bulb floating on the water level with a long connection cable. With adjusting the length of the cable the flip/flop of the swimmer will be adjusted and so the switch on/off the pump.

The green pump you are showing is available in many sizes (mostly in a blue color) and in many price levels, for transporting the water, you should get in for no more than 2,500 - 3,000 Baht, in any shop on the corner or in a Big C, Tesco, Global House. The same shape and size you will get with a Chinese or Taiwan name and for a half price than the Italian one, and it works sometimes better.

This pump has a limited sucking depth (have to check on the nameplate) but can push quite high. The sucking basket is to be equipped by a check valve that will keep the pipe full of water above it (you can get in any shop at the corner, just say check valve 1", they will understand even in English).

But important is the presure vessel sand filter through which the pump (automatic) will push the water in your house system, filled with normal washed out sand 0.5 - 1mm, something I show here (but without the rost hatching out). The village people knows where to buy and who will install it, your trustworthy lady in the shop will surely know. (can buy at Global House too).

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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Wed May 20, 2015 1:16 pm

Thanks Ian
I will try to get you better picture and measurements but here's a start.


How deep is your well from ground level to the lowest level the well is likely to reduce to?

The water level at the moment is 3 rings under ground i.e. approx 135cm. I can only guess that this is dry season level or not.
When we dug the well level was two rings below ground. (The ground level at the well is just a little above rice field level about 20metres away on a sort of flattish area between rice field and hill starting to rise which is pineapples. Some vegetables sometimes grown in this sort of area.

What is the difference in height between ground level at the well to your discharge point on the "hilltop" ?

Not done scientifically but judging by the height of poles up the hill I'm allowing ca 30metres. Will firm this up.

How far from the well to the hilltop (distance)

About 100m. Will also firm this up.

will you have a storage tank on the hilltop - how high is the tank?

Intend it to be just high enough to get a slow (emergency) gravity feed into house in event of elec failure.
/quote]


As to your point about pesticides etc.
I have a little concern about that they spray selective weedkiller (grasses?) on the pineapple fields on the hillside occasionally.
This is also sprayed onto the pineapples so presumably it is harmless or degrades, and we shall not be drinking the water.....but it is a concern.

thanks for your interest greatly appreciated

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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Cheeryble » Wed May 20, 2015 1:30 pm

Klondyke wrote:There are surely few types of water level switch for supervizing the lowest level when sucking the water from a tank (or for the highest level when filling in), for 300 - 500 Baht at any hardware shop. With 2 hanging swimmers for adjusting the 2 levels. Or a different swimmer as a red bulb floating on the water level with a long connection cable. With adjusting the length of the cable the flip/flop of the swimmer will be adjusted and so the switch on/off the pump.

The green pump you are showing is available in many sizes (mostly in a blue color) and in many price levels, for transporting the water, you should get in for no more than 2,500 - 3,000 Baht, in any shop on the corner or in a Big C, Tesco, Global House. The same shape and size you will get with a Chinese or Taiwan name and for a half price than the Italian one, and it works sometimes better.

This pump has a limited sucking depth (have to check on the nameplate) but can push quite high. The sucking basket is to be equipped by a check valve that will keep the pipe full of water above it (you can get in any shop at the corner, just say check valve 1", they will understand even in English).

But important is the presure vessel sand filter through which the pump (automatic) will push the water in your house system, filled with normal washed out sand 0.5 - 1mm, something I show here (but without the rost hatching out). The village people knows where to buy and who will install it, your trustworthy lady in the shop will surely know. (can buy at Global House too).



Thanks Klondyke

though i would like to be able to visualise about the "swimmers"...... :)

BTW I think the green pump was the Saer and a blue one is the Pedrollo which sell 2 million a year.
Here is the spec plate for the latter for you and Ian:

IMG_3226.JPG
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Klondyke » Wed May 20, 2015 5:48 pm

The pump plate should say something about the sucking depth.
Anyway, as I said, you can have a cheaper pump and perhaps by one size less with some 3/4 HP - unless you do not furnish a guesthouse. :D
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pumps and well....advice please?

Postby iammike » Thu May 21, 2015 8:00 am

Klondyke wrote:The pump plate should say something about the sucking depth.
<snip>


That is IMO the H on the plate

39:15

And the H:Max

42
For more specs look here

http://www.pedrollo.co.uk/pdf/Product%2 ... al/2CP.pdf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk, please do excuse any spelling mistakes.
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Re: pumps and well....advice please?

Postby Klondyke » Thu May 21, 2015 8:59 am

iammike wrote:
Klondyke wrote:The pump plate should say something about the sucking depth.
<snip>


That is IMO the H on the plate
39:15
And the H:Max 42


No, this is the pushing height, what these kinds of pump achieve (2 centrifugal discs with 3 - 4 mm distance in-between, throwing the water from the center to the outline). If used on a dirty water the space in-between has to be cleaned - I have done many times.

No pump can suck from a depth over 9m (9.81), back to school.
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