Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:47 pm

arranp wrote:
can any one give me the litres per minute I going to get for the 1m 2m 3m and 4m readings ? and workings to show how they got the figures, btw gravity is 9.82 m/s, I will try and use this to produce a formula that gives the same results as my readings ?

Will post in the next few days when I done the experiment.


Nobody can answer your questions because you haven't given enough information. You haven't given the ID of the pipe you bought, hint there are 3 different ID's for blue pipe in any one size.

Since you're going to do the experiment anyway why would we look it up?
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:02 pm

Ians wrote:Ok I see what you are saying - it would seem that the mixer thread is more than likely either 1/2" BSP pipe or 1/2" NPT pipe thread, neither are which are compatible with the 12mm pipe thread use in Thailand, hence the need for a transition fitting.
For interest have attached a photo of a 12mm PVC fitting (Thai thread), if you can read a vernier gauge, you will see it is approx. 18.5mm inside diameter but the BSP & NPT inch sizes threads are not compatible.

However, I'm not sure what the 18mm pipe is you have brought - where are you measuring the 18mm?


Just added a note, then talking pipe threads you need to give the particular thread its correct name, ie., 1/2 BSP or 1/2" NPT or in the case of Thai PVC - 12mm pipe.

Actually Thailand uses BSP thread on the majority of its water fittings. So Thai ½"/12mm pipe has a ½"BSP thread and even if it was an ½ NTP thread you could still get it to mate to a ½ BSP fitting with some PTFE tape as the pitch is the same its just 60 degrees instead of 55 degrees.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby BKKBILL » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:41 pm

Is this a joke? Forty some post four pages. We have three or four of the top posters of water/plumbing here trying to enlighten someone who would rather argue his point than listen to those who are trying to help.
This is starting to remind me of a similar discussion over in the electrical section.

Self-sufficiency indeed.
It's not who you know, it's whom you know.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:43 am

BKKBILL wrote:Is this a joke? Forty some post four pages. We have three or four of the top posters of water/plumbing here trying to enlighten someone who would rather argue his point than listen to those who are trying to help.
This is starting to remind me of a similar discussion over in the electrical section.

Self-sufficiency indeed.


no contribution found
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:54 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:
Ians wrote:Let's stop all the nonsense, crap and misinformation, etc. on fitting sizes, there is no such as 18 mm fittings, the std. 1/2" (12mm) blue PVC has an outside diameter of approx 21.5mm, the outside diameter of a male threaded fitting is approx. 19.5mm.
Therefore the 18 mm you are measuring is 1/2" / 12 mm standard pipe thread and the inside diameter of a screwed fitting is about 18+mm.
End of story.


no I'm measuring the internal diameter, they are 18mm, go yourself and measure if you don't believe me.

They are supplied with reduces to take the internal diameter from 18mm to 12mm, the reducers can be seen on page 3 of this manual http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_337564.pdf

this pipe is ID 22mm, I will go back to home pro again to take pictures of both ends of the dog leg and provide them here.

I believe you call them dogleg connectors, one end internal diameter is 18mm the other is 12mm.

Ians is correct. There is no such thing as 18mm pipe. Take a picture of the writing on the pipe and post it it will say ½"

Thai Standard ½" 8.5 pipe has an 18mm ID. Thai standard ½" 13.5 has a 16mm ID

Screwed fitting ID 18mm thread OD 20.7mm

That is all ½" pipe and fittings

Go to http://bit.ly/1EXwxKp for more information

Your 12mm is ¼ BSP and nobody uses it here


the ID of the pipe is the same as the ID of the mixer side of the dogleg, the ID of the pipe side is smaller. hence why I choose this pipe to do the experiment with. I thought I can connect directly to the mixer and not use the dogleg which reduces the ID.

Image

Image
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:52 am

arranp wrote:
The ID of the pipe is the same as the ID of the mixer side of the dogleg, the ID of the pipe side is smaller. hence why I choose this pipe to do the experiment with. I thought I can connect directly to the mixer and not use the dogleg which reduces the ID.

Can you?

FWIW my ¾" pipe 13.5 ID is 20.2mm and the thread OD is 26.49mm
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:22 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:
The ID of the pipe is the same as the ID of the mixer side of the dogleg, the ID of the pipe side is smaller. hence why I choose this pipe to do the experiment with. I thought I can connect directly to the mixer and not use the dogleg which reduces the ID.

Can you?

FWIW my ¾" pipe 13.5 ID is 20.2mm and the thread OD is 26.49mm


I will check, but within the inside the mixer itself the ID is reduced from ID of the mixer inlet, I would guess there is no point in piping to the mixer with ID the same as its inlet.

I need to check,

i) if within side the mixer ( rain shower ) the ID is reduced from the ID of its inlet ( excluding the dogleg )
ii) double check the ID of the mixer inlet and the ID of the dog leg.

will to this later today or tomorrow.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Roger Ramjet » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:25 pm

arranp wrote:BKKBILL wrote:
Is this a joke? Forty some post four pages. We have three or four of the top posters of water/plumbing here trying to enlighten someone who would rather argue his point than listen to those who are trying to help.
This is starting to remind me of a similar discussion over in the electrical section.

Self-sufficiency indeed.


no contribution found

arranp,
There was a contribution, it was a serious contribution from a long term senior member, who sees one new member in the same light as me, wrecking threads because they refuse to read what has already been written on the subject in other threads, can't do his own research and can't use the CTH search engine.
Instead of wrecking threads, why don't you have this "discussion" on your own build thread, that way members can read it or ignore it?
I should warn you that the moderator of this thread gives little or no warning when he has seen/heard enough nonsense and will close and lock the thread down for good.
Bill was giving you such a warning. The fact that you didn't recognise this is indicative of your lack of understanding of CTH and what it is here for. It is not a play thing for you to use and then discard, it is here for people to read and add to the knowledge already imparted, something you have failed to do in all catagories.
I'm spelling this out to you simply, so that you might understand, although from your previous posts I seriously doubt that.
Please note I am being diplomatic because I have already built my house with the assistance of this forum. You might like to read it, it starts here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1864
I know if Geordie or Mike were still here this "discussion" you are having with yourself would have been locked down long ago. Take the hint.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Ians » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:34 pm

arranp
How about we forego what has been said / discussed prior to this and make a fresh start by setting out exactly what you are trying to establish and why with the mixer - this may clear the air a little and ensure we are all on the same track.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:41 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:BKKBILL wrote:
Is this a joke? Forty some post four pages. We have three or four of the top posters of water/plumbing here trying to enlighten someone who would rather argue his point than listen to those who are trying to help.
This is starting to remind me of a similar discussion over in the electrical section.

Self-sufficiency indeed.


no contribution found

arranp,
There was a contribution, it was a serious contribution from a long term senior member, who sees one new member in the same light as me, wrecking threads because they refuse to read what has already been written on the subject in other threads, can't do his own research and can't use the CTH search engine.
Instead of wrecking threads, why don't you have this "discussion" on your own build thread, that way members can read it or ignore it?
I should warn you that the moderator of this thread gives little or no warning when he has seen/heard enough nonsense and will close and lock the thread down for good.
Bill was giving you such a warning. The fact that you didn't recognise this is indicative of your lack of understanding of CTH and what it is here for. It is not a play thing for you to use and then discard, it is here for people to read and add to the knowledge already imparted, something you have failed to do in all catagories.
I'm spelling this out to you simply, so that you might understand, although from your previous posts I seriously doubt that.
Please note I am being diplomatic because I have already built my house with the assistance of this forum. You might like to read it, it starts here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1864
I know if Geordie or Mike were still here this "discussion" you are having with yourself would have been locked down long ago. Take the hint.


thank you for the comment but it is not helpfull in me finding my litres per minute figure.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:08 pm

arranp wrote:
Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:BKKBILL wrote:
Is this a joke? Forty some post four pages. We have three or four of the top posters of water/plumbing here trying to enlighten someone who would rather argue his point than listen to those who are trying to help.
This is starting to remind me of a similar discussion over in the electrical section.

Self-sufficiency indeed.


no contribution found

arranp,
There was a contribution, it was a serious contribution from a long term senior member, who sees one new member in the same light as me, wrecking threads because they refuse to read what has already been written on the subject in other threads, can't do his own research and can't use the CTH search engine.
Instead of wrecking threads, why don't you have this "discussion" on your own build thread, that way members can read it or ignore it?
I should warn you that the moderator of this thread gives little or no warning when he has seen/heard enough nonsense and will close and lock the thread down for good.
Bill was giving you such a warning. The fact that you didn't recognise this is indicative of your lack of understanding of CTH and what it is here for. It is not a play thing for you to use and then discard, it is here for people to read and add to the knowledge already imparted, something you have failed to do in all catagories.
I'm spelling this out to you simply, so that you might understand, although from your previous posts I seriously doubt that.
Please note I am being diplomatic because I have already built my house with the assistance of this forum. You might like to read it, it starts here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1864
I know if Geordie or Mike were still here this "discussion" you are having with yourself would have been locked down long ago. Take the hint.


thank you for the comment but it is not helpfull in me finding my litres per minute figure.


as for locking the thread, I would prefer it just be locked if your unhappy with it. I'm interest in building my house, I do not recognise the seniority of this sites members, as I have not built a relationship with anyone, thus far I can confirm some good people on here I have corresponded with, some people I've had patience with, and some people just rude and grumpy.

my personality is one with lots of questions and makes lots mistakes.

please close the thread ! as it seems I am someone who you prefer not to have on coolthaihouse.com.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:23 pm

here seems to an explanation as to my confusion (highlighted in blue):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_size
In the UK, pipe is available that is quoted in both metric size and imperial size. The metric size is larger than the imperial size. For example both 1⁄2 inch and 15 millimetres (0.59 in) copper pipe is actually the same pipe which has a nominal internal diameter of 1⁄2 an inch and a nominal external diameter of 15 millimetres[2] (diameter is always internal in the imperial measurement system and always external in metric).

doh why didn't I know that.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Ians » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:41 pm

arranp wrote:here seems to an explanation as to my confusion (highlighted in blue):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_size
In the UK, pipe is available that is quoted in both metric size and imperial size. The metric size is larger than the imperial size. For example both 1⁄2 inch and 15 millimetres (0.59 in) copper pipe is actually the same pipe which has a nominal internal diameter of 1⁄2 an inch and a nominal external diameter of 15 millimetres[2] (diameter is always internal in the imperial measurement system and always external in metric).

doh why didn't I know that.


Good, now let's get serious and advise exactly what you are trying to achieve with the mixer and why.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:35 am

Ians wrote:
arranp wrote:here seems to an explanation as to my confusion (highlighted in blue):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_size
In the UK, pipe is available that is quoted in both metric size and imperial size. The metric size is larger than the imperial size. For example both 1⁄2 inch and 15 millimetres (0.59 in) copper pipe is actually the same pipe which has a nominal internal diameter of 1⁄2 an inch and a nominal external diameter of 15 millimetres[2] (diameter is always internal in the imperial measurement system and always external in metric).

doh why didn't I know that.


Good, now let's get serious and advise exactly what you are trying to achieve with the mixer and why.


thanks,

I would like enough supply capacity to supply 3 rain showers equipped with thermostatic mixer bars, running concurrently.

hot water supplied via solar water heater and stored in insulated hot water tank
cold water harvested from roof and stored in cold water tank.

house to have 2 floors and is to be built on land sloping from 20m above sea level down to 14m above sea level.

house 1st floor - 23m above sea level
garden / pool platform & house ground floor - 20m above sea level
car park level - 17m above sea level
ground level - 14 m above sea level

I believe 2 options are available

i) gravity fed system ( indirect pumped )
ii) direct pumped system

my electric will be supplied via solar panel in the daytime and batteries at night.

the house design is not finalised yet, so blank convas.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Ians » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:42 am

I. How about forgetting sea level measurements - I for one can't be bothered making a calculation every time I need a relative height. Just call ground level zero or .00 and then set your various levels from there.
2.What is the flow rates for the rain showers. if you don't know ask the supplier or manufacturer ie. ask for the flow rates at various pressures, either a table or flow rate curve.
3. you will need to supply, (1). the mean water level in the tower relative to each outlet (for this option). (2). the distance from the tower to each outlet, (3).the pipe size, the number of bends, elbows "T" connections, valves in each pipe run.
4.If a pumped system (option 2). (1). the info' as per (3.3). (2). plus mean water level in your supply tank in relation to each outlet. (3). a pump performance curve.

Why are you wanting to use solar power and batteries - trying to save the planet. Personally, I think it's a big con by manufacturers and power companies - for the manufacture it's a means to make a profit and for the power companies, a means of reducing the need to invests more money into power generation.
Solar power equipment and batteries are expensive, life limited and not 100% reliable due to weather conditions. Further the manufacture solar equipment requires generated power for manufacture of this equipment - so at which point does the costs / environmental impact of producing this equipment become less than the cost / impact of using generated power from what today are usually efficient power stations to power house-hold pumps for domestic use.

To fully ascertain and calculate your hydraulic requirements (flows, pressure needed, pump selection, installation advice and commissioning) my charge-out rate is Bht.1500/hour plus travel and accommodation at cost, and a couple of beers each evening when visiting.

Full resume covering my 30+ years in the pump industry is available on request.
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