Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:24 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Ians wrote:However, going back to basics, what is the reason for overhead tanks, I see absolutely no advantage of pumping water to o/head tanks to reticulate it back to the showers -- unless of course you feel there is a cost saying, which there isn't

There are excellent reasons. We experienced a couple yesterday.

1) No water from the local supply for about 24 hours
2) No power for about 3 hours

We have had power cuts lasting over 6 hours and water cuts lasting 1 to 2 weeks. With overhead tanks you can get some water.

Another advantage is that you can use a much cheaper and lower powered pump since all it has to do is raise the water between 5 & 20 meters, it doesn't need to have high, or constant, pressure. You may well be able to use a solar powered pump.

So while I still think that a 6m head is too low the overall idea is sound and practical.


This calculator is imperial I converted from metric http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-pumping-costs-d_1527.html

3.963 Q - Volume flow (gpm) ( 15 litres per minute )
36.09 h - head (ft) ( 11 meters head upwards )
1 c - cost rate per kWh ( using a unit of 1 as I want to know the kWh )
-----------
33 watts per hour

not sure if this is correct will look for more calculators.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:30 am

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:it seems we agree on psi and bar. just the conversion to litres per minute seems to be where the descrepancy is, will work throught the thread and continue searching until I am able to calculate and agreed figure.

Thank you for bearing with me.


Once again there is no conversation from pressure to flow rate.
You can calculate flow, given pressure and pipe size.

http://bit.ly/1BFeK72

Or

http://bit.ly/16bu4R0

And there is little point in trying to calculate it for a normal sized private house. Just use the biggest pipe (3/4", 1" or bigger) you can, until you get to the point where you have to reduce for your outlets. That plan will get you the maximum flow and pressure, and will reduce the effect of using 2 or more taps or showers at the same time.


outlets I believe are 18 mm or 0.75 inch. still trying to figure out the height of the tank, but I found the following which has a lot to digest http://shop.bsigroup.com/upload/Shop/Download/Books/BIP2177sample.pdf

Flow rate to litre per minute conversion chart, I think this is assuming a 12mm or 0.5 inch pipe:
Image
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:08 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I've seen the use of many plastic tanks to hold water, if necessary I will use them instead. If there is a planning issue, I can install them later after the house has been signed off.

You still don't get it do you?
You have no architect, no engineer, no plans, no experience except in an office and telling people what to do and you think that building in Thailand is simple as long as the trademen do their jobs. There are no tradesmen in Thailand. Go to any "College" here in Thailand (take a gun just in case, even the teachers do that) and you'll find half the students asleep, some practicing their next "war" with a rival college and maybe 5% who are actually paying attention and trying to learn. They all know they're going to graduate as long as they get their parents/relatives/friends to pay the fees, so why study. Nobody checks what is taught, nobody cares as long as what is "taught" is by rote and corresponds with what the relevant authority said had to be taught. And when those kids graduate they are like you, they'll sit behind a desk (if they bother to work at all) and tell other people what to do.


There is little option, thai architects / engineers are the resource that is available in this country.

Roger Ramjet wrote: And your research is not your research. You have made it your quest to have Coolthaihouse members do all your half arsed research for you because you don't have the faintest clue where to look and what to look for.... or as you claim on one line, you don't have time and on the next line say you have been doing the research for days.... yet members here have found or given all the answers within seconds of reading your posts, and then you still don't understand.


I like you have spent several hours in our corresponding, which is time spent digressing from determining my water tank height.

Roger Ramjet wrote: Are you sure your not in that British comedy The Office"?
arranp wrote:I am most keen to go out and actually do the work with the builder ( and architect for that matter ), however those things are not now, I would like them to be...


comment of no use.

Roger Ramjet wrote:You don't have one of any of the above. You haven't interviewed anyone, you don't have plans, you have no engineer, you have just a block of land with nothing on it and ideas.


partly correct
awaiting architect and engineering plans from architect expected monday
the architect I am using did the plans for this hotel http://www.lantamermaid.com/index.php?sp=GMWEB-0706121023100475&id=intro
the builder I'm using has lived here for 20 years and built loch palm golf club and its properties http://www.mbkgolf.com/index.php

Roger Ramjet wrote:If you had read just one building story here most of your questions would have been answered. Try "Max and Bee in Chaing Mai" or just the first building thread by Apetley who tells it like it is with all its pitfalls and problems. Both Max and Apetley were there doing the work and "supervising" and still things happened that could only happen in Thailand.


thank you, I will note to read their thread.

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:How what is done ? its their job to do the architect and engineering drawings for the house and the platform for the pool/garden. I've no experience in this type of house construction, column / beam.

Now you really have me rolling around on the floor laughing too much. "It's their job" but you want to get them out of their office and on your building site..... what are you going to do, threaten them?


Are you suggesting the architect does not do a site visit ?

Roger Ramjet wrote: In Thailand their job finishes when the Or Bor Tor signs off on their plans, which then become your plans with all the mistakes that need correcting. You won't get them on site, This is Thailand, you don't expect them to make corrections that you failed to notice. You don't expect them to come to the site do you? Heaven forbid. It's your build, not theirs will be the reply or speak to your builder I'm busy. Or that's what you wanted, not my problem.
You have a distorted view of Thai architecs and engineers. The only really qualified engineer that might come is the Or Bor Tor and unless it is to ask for money or the piss-up at the end, it will be to close you down. And you can't appeal. There are no rules and regulations here except Rafferty's Rules and what the local mafia boss says.


again the builder I'm using has lived here for 20 years and built loch palm golf club and its properties http://www.mbkgolf.com/index.php

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I moved a company of about 40 people once to a new larger open plan office.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I won't bore you with details, but a Task Force has an Infantry Battalion 1,300 men, a Medium Artillery Regiment, a Tank or APC Regiment, a Field Hospital and Field Workshop etc etc etc and not only does all their equipment go with them it has to go in Order of Battle and you can't disrupt civilian traffic. Think about it. In order.
Think of where you are going to refuel, where the army is going to stay on the move, how to avoid accidents with civilians, speeds allowed. It is all done in order, the first being the reconnaissance of the route, weighing bridges, coordinating with States and Councils. The list is endless, but you must start at the beginning, not as you are doing, starting at the end.


yes an impressive feat, as I already stated I can only imagine. The only experience I have had that is any where near similar to that is moving 40 people in an office.

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I got the break even point to be 5 years for the solar panels and inverter + another 2 or 3 years for the batteries.

I hate to dissolution you but there is a complete thread on this that you didn't read, instead you started a new one, which is why I'm a little peeved because it means that if you didn't read that thread you don't know how to use a simple search engine, and if you did read it, you'd know that not only is what you postulate hogwash, but will also take far longer.


what is the title of the thread ?

Roger Ramjet wrote:One member here used solar....illegally because he's "up country", but he didn't used batteries because it defeats the cost savings. But it was discussed in great detail and a lot of members with expertise donated their time and knowledge writing about it. I would suggest you read that thread and use the search engine.


my motivation is not financial, it is to show the next generation to use clean energy.

Roger Ramjet wrote: The rest of your "research" material can be found by using the search engine, it has been covered in great depth already.
I lurked for over 2 years. I read every thread. I politely suggest you do the same and you'll have all the answers.


Thank you but as you suggested I typed in litres per minute into the search box of this site, I didn't find what I was looking for.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:13 am

arranp wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:it seems we agree on psi and bar. just the conversion to litres per minute seems to be where the descrepancy is, will work throught the thread and continue searching until I am able to calculate and agreed figure.

Thank you for bearing with me.


Once again there is no conversation from pressure to flow rate.
You can calculate flow, given pressure and pipe size.

http://bit.ly/1BFeK72

Or

http://bit.ly/16bu4R0

And there is little point in trying to calculate it for a normal sized private house. Just use the biggest pipe (3/4", 1" or bigger) you can, until you get to the point where you have to reduce for your outlets. That plan will get you the maximum flow and pressure, and will reduce the effect of using 2 or more taps or showers at the same time.


outlets I believe are 18 mm or 0.75 inch. still trying to figure out the height of the tank, but I found the following which has a lot to digest http://shop.bsigroup.com/upload/Shop/Download/Books/BIP2177sample.pdf

Flow rate to litre per minute conversion chart, I think this is assuming a 12mm or 0.5 inch pipe:
Image


apologies, this is the article http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_337564.pdf
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:39 am

arranp wrote:what is the title of the thread ?

This is what I am talking about. If you want to find the thread on solar power why not look under Electric, then Solar Energy..... not the thread you started!!!!! There is a huge discussion there with all the pros and cons.
Instead you didn't bother or couldn't use the search engine, so you started your own thread when everything had already been covered in great detail already.
Just to make it simpler for you, here's the thread. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3332
I would suggest you start to read some of the headings. As far as I recall there are a number of experts here in regards to water and pumps. There are a number of threads with massive technical detail, the reasons why you should use different types of pumps, different sizes of pipe, and all about the use of water towers and storage of water..... including the use of underground storage.
If you had read the first building story you would have learnt that, let alone the threads that cover all the details.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:58 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:what is the title of the thread ?

This is what I am talking about. If you want to find the thread on solar power why not look under Electric, then Solar Energy..... not the thread you started!!!!! There is a huge discussion there with all the pros and cons.
Instead you didn't bother or couldn't use the search engine, so you started your own thread when everything had already been covered in great detail already.
Just to make it simpler for you, here's the thread. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3332
I would suggest you start to read some of the headings. As far as I recall there are a number of experts here in regards to water and pumps. There are a number of threads with massive technical detail, the reasons why you should use different types of pumps, different sizes of pipe, and all about the use of water towers and storage of water..... including the use of underground storage.
If you had read the first building story you would have learnt that, let alone the threads that cover all the details.

Thankyou.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:19 pm

arranp wrote:
outlets I believe are 18 mm or 0.75 inch.

Possible but unlikely, the standard is ½" or 12mm
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:03 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:
outlets I believe are 18 mm or 0.75 inch.

Possible but unlikely, the standard is ½" or 12mm


yes I agree but in the manual it shows reducers, the mixer bar has 18mm outlets.then reducers to take it down to 12mm
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:35 pm

arranp wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:
outlets I believe are 18 mm or 0.75 inch.

Possible but unlikely, the standard is ½" or 12mm


yes I agree but in the manual it shows reducers, the mixer bar has 18mm outlets.then reducers to take it down to 12mm

The manual shows that the supplied fittings are for ½" BSP pipe (page 8 ), as I thought.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:58 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:[
Possible but unlikely, the standard is ½" or 12mm


yes I agree but in the manual it shows reducers, the mixer bar has 18mm outlets.then reducers to take it down to 12mm

The manual shows that the supplied fittings are for ½" BSP pipe (page 8 ), as I thought.


yes they supply reducers to take it down from 18mm to 12mm.

just come back from home pro, the shower mixers are the same 18mm on the mixer itself, but supplied with reducers to 12mm. Would it not be better to plumb to the shower using 18mm pipe and do away with the 12mm reducers ?

however the internal pipe-work within the mixer itself reduce to 12 mm, thats maybe why they are supplied with the reducers.

but definitely the actual fittings on the mixer itself is 18mm.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:07 pm

like I said above, just come back from home-pro

bought:

4m pipe 18mm ( I gone for 18mm pipe because the mixers have 18mm connectors )
18mm stop end
6 litre header tank ( nestle water bottle ) and fittings to connect the 18mm pipe to the bottom of the 6 litre nestle water bottle.

I'm going to connect the 4m pipe to the 6 litre nestle tank/bottle, position it vertically, fill it with water, go down to the bottom with my 1.5 litre water bottle and let the water flow until I fill the water bottle.

I will then cut the pipe down by 1 metre increments redo the timings to fill a 1.5 litre water bottle.

can any one give me the litres per minute I going to get for the 1m 2m 3m and 4m readings ? and workings to show how they got the figures, btw gravity is 9.82 m/s, I will try and use this to produce a formula that gives the same results as my readings ?

Will post in the next few days when I done the experiment.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Ians » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:22 pm

Let's stop all the nonsense, crap and misinformation, etc. on fitting sizes, there is no such as 18 mm fittings, the std. 1/2" (12mm) blue PVC has an outside diameter of approx 21.5mm, the outside diameter of a male threaded fitting is approx. 19.5mm.
Therefore the 18 mm you are measuring is 1/2" / 12 mm standard pipe thread and the inside diameter of a screwed fitting is about 18+mm.
End of story.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:25 pm

Ians wrote:Let's stop all the nonsense, crap and misinformation, etc. on fitting sizes, there is no such as 18 mm fittings, the std. 1/2" (12mm) blue PVC has an outside diameter of approx 21.5mm, the outside diameter of a male threaded fitting is approx. 19.5mm.
Therefore the 18 mm you are measuring is 1/2" / 12 mm standard pipe thread and the inside diameter of a screwed fitting is about 18+mm.
End of story.


no I'm measuring the internal diameter, they are 18mm, go yourself and measure if you don't believe me.

They are supplied with reduces to take the internal diameter from 18mm to 12mm, the reducers can be seen on page 3 of this manual http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_337564.pdf

I believe you call them dogleg connectors, one end internal diameter is 18mm the other is 12mm.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:37 pm

arranp wrote:
Ians wrote:Let's stop all the nonsense, crap and misinformation, etc. on fitting sizes, there is no such as 18 mm fittings, the std. 1/2" (12mm) blue PVC has an outside diameter of approx 21.5mm, the outside diameter of a male threaded fitting is approx. 19.5mm.
Therefore the 18 mm you are measuring is 1/2" / 12 mm standard pipe thread and the inside diameter of a screwed fitting is about 18+mm.
End of story.


no I'm measuring the internal diameter, they are 18mm, go yourself and measure if you don't believe me.

They are supplied with reduces to take the internal diameter from 18mm to 12mm, the reducers can be seen on page 3 of this manual http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_337564.pdf

I believe you call them dogleg connectors, one end internal diameter is 18mm the other is 12mm.

Ians is correct. There is no such thing as 18mm pipe. Take a picture of the writing on the pipe and post it it will say ½"

Thai Standard ½" 8.5 pipe has an 18mm ID. Thai standard ½" 13.5 has a 16mm ID

Screwed fitting ID 18mm thread OD 20.7mm

That is all ½" pipe and fittings

Go to http://bit.ly/1EXwxKp for more information

Your 12mm is ¼ BSP and nobody uses it here
Last edited by Sometimewoodworker on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Ians » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:39 pm

Ok I see what you are saying - it would seem that the mixer thread is more than likely either 1/2" BSP pipe or 1/2" NPT pipe thread, neither are which are compatible with the 12mm pipe thread use in Thailand, hence the need for a transition fitting.
For interest have attached a photo of a 12mm PVC fitting (Thai thread), if you can read a vernier gauge, you will see it is approx. 18.5mm inside diameter but the BSP & NPT inch sizes threads are not compatible.

However, I'm not sure what the 18mm pipe is you have brought - where are you measuring the 18mm?


Just added a note, then talking pipe threads you need to give the particular thread its correct name, ie., 1/2 BSP or 1/2" NPT or in the case of Thai PVC - 12mm pipe.
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