Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

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Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:09 pm

Hello,

Considering gravity fed system, ie. a verticle tower with 2 tanks, one for hot water (solar heated), and one for cold water.

I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

i) head height
ii) pipe size

to achieve approx 15 litres per minute per pipe as this is the pressure of a power / rain shower, but I guess if this is both hot and cold mixed then assuming 50/50 mix it would be 7.5 litres per minute per pipe, but alas I would like to accommodate several showers being on at one time, so back up to 15 litres per minute.

I imagine each tank to hold between 500 to 1000 litres.

Thanks.

Also, I will have a 20,000 to 40,000 concrete litre tank built under the house to harvest rain water and use an electric pump to pump the water up to the twin tanks at the top of the tower. The concrete tank will be built 14m above sea level, the height of the tanks on the water tower depends on the drop needed from the answer above but the the top of the shower heads in the house on the second floor are about 25m above sea level. After determining the delta between lower concrete tank and upper water tanks on the tower, what size pump would be needed, or how do I calculate it ( I know probably it depends on litres per minute to fill the water tower tank but not looking for anything radically quick just the average will do ) ?

Tanks in advance for advices, pointers and formulas or sizes / heights.

Regards
Arran.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby fredlk » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:46 pm

For good gravity-fed water pressure your tanks will have to be on a tower at least 2 floors up from the bathroom or even 3 which won't make you popular with the neighbours.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:07 pm

assuming :

i) each floor is 3m
ii) shower head is 1m below ceiling level or 2m above floor level
iii) tank height is 1.5m

3 floors gives ( 3 x 3m ) + 1m ( shower head ) + 1.5m ( tank ) = overall head of 11.5m
2 floors gives ( 2 x 3m ) + 1m ( shower head ) + 1.5m ( tank ) = overall head of 8.5m

assuming roof is 3m high then base of tank would be :

11.5m head gives 11.5m - ( 3m roof + 1m shower head + 1.5m tank ) platform base 6m above roof ridge
8.5m head gives 8.5m - ( 3m roof + 1m shower head + 1.5m tank ) platform base 3m above roof ridge
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:12 pm

arranp wrote:I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... -vs-height
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:42 pm

arranp wrote:Hello,

Considering gravity fed system, ie. a verticle tower with 2 tanks, one for hot water (solar heated), and one for cold water.

I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

i) head height
ii) pipe size

to achieve approx 15 litres per minute per pipe as this is the pressure of a power / rain shower, but I guess if this is both hot and cold mixed then assuming 50/50 mix it would be 7.5 litres per minute per pipe, but alas I would like to accommodate several showers being on at one time, so back up to 15 litres per minute.

I imagine each tank to hold between 500 to 1000 litres.

Thanks.

Also, I will have a 20,000 to 40,000 concrete litre tank built under the house to harvest rain water and use an electric pump to pump the water up to the twin tanks at the top of the tower. The concrete tank will be built 14m above sea level, the height of the tanks on the water tower depends on the drop needed from the answer above but the the top of the shower heads in the house on the second floor are about 25m above sea level. After determining the delta between lower concrete tank and upper water tanks on the tower, what size pump would be needed, or how do I calculate it ( I know probably it depends on litres per minute to fill the water tower tank but not looking for anything radically quick just the average will do ) ?

Tanks in advance for advices, pointers and formulas or sizes / heights.

Regards
Arran.


As you're going to pump to the higher level holding tanks, unless you really want a tower of 10 to 15 meters over your shower hight, you should pump from the holding tanks as well.

You are also confusing flow rates and pressure. There's a good discussion on the subject elsewhere on the board, however the answer is keep the pipe size as large as possible as long as possible. Don't bother to reduce pipe size to the usual 12mm fixture until the last possible point.

I also posted details of both Hitachi and Mitsubishi pumps.


As far as the size of the pump to the holding tank is concerned forget about the amount needed for the showers (that's part of why you're putting in a holding tank) a small pump will probably be enough, it will just run longer to top up the tanks.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:53 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
arranp wrote:Hello,

Considering gravity fed system, ie. a verticle tower with 2 tanks, one for hot water (solar heated), and one for cold water.

I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

i) head height
ii) pipe size

to achieve approx 15 litres per minute per pipe as this is the pressure of a power / rain shower, but I guess if this is both hot and cold mixed then assuming 50/50 mix it would be 7.5 litres per minute per pipe, but alas I would like to accommodate several showers being on at one time, so back up to 15 litres per minute.

I imagine each tank to hold between 500 to 1000 litres.

Thanks.

Also, I will have a 20,000 to 40,000 concrete litre tank built under the house to harvest rain water and use an electric pump to pump the water up to the twin tanks at the top of the tower. The concrete tank will be built 14m above sea level, the height of the tanks on the water tower depends on the drop needed from the answer above but the the top of the shower heads in the house on the second floor are about 25m above sea level. After determining the delta between lower concrete tank and upper water tanks on the tower, what size pump would be needed, or how do I calculate it ( I know probably it depends on litres per minute to fill the water tower tank but not looking for anything radically quick just the average will do ) ?

Tanks in advance for advices, pointers and formulas or sizes / heights.

Regards
Arran.


As you're going to pump to the higher level holding tanks, unless you really want a tower of 10 to 15 meters over your shower hight, you should pump from the holding tanks as well.

You are also confusing flow rates and pressure. There's a good discussion on the subject elsewhere on the board, however the answer is keep the pipe size as large as possible as long as possible. Don't bother to reduce pipe size to the usual 12mm fixture until the last possible point.

I also posted details of both Hitachi and Mitsubishi pumps.


As far as the size of the pump to the holding tank is concerned forget about the amount needed for the showers (that's part of why you're putting in a holding tank) a small pump will probably be enough, it will just run longer to top up the tanks.


I'm trying to do without mains water and use all my water from harvesting rain water, so will be pumping from the concrete rain water holding tank at 14m above sea level.


just trying to convert the following from imperial to metric and psi to litres per minute.... apparently 1 cubic inch is equal to 0.036 psi or 1 cubic foot is equal to 0.432 psi, so I'm trying to get from feet and inches to meters and from psi to litres per minute... 5555

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... -vs-height
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:20 pm

ok, I think I got something

0.036 pounds of force ( or psi ) per cubic inch
0.036 x 12 = 0.432 pounds of force per foot
0.432 x 3.2804 = 1.417133 pounds for force per metre

found here that 5 psi gives approx 9 litres per minute
http://www.isgb.org/forum/showthread.php?4425-How-to-convert-liters-per-minute-to-psi.

so 15 litres per minute is 8.33 psi
then 8.33 psi / 1.417133 pounds of force per meter = 5.88 meters head is required for 15 litres per minute flow rate.

so 1m from shower to ceiling + 3m from ceiling to roof ridge + 0.38m to base of tank platform + 1.5m to top of tank = 5.88 meters.

therefore to achieve 15 lpm I need to put the base of the tank approx 0.5 to 1m above ridge height.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:08 pm

alas here is a calculator to convert bar to head height and the reverse.

you can assume 1 bar is 14.7 psi is 26.46 litres per minute.

http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/meters+head
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:45 pm

arranp wrote:alas here is a calculator to convert bar to head height and the reverse.

you can assume 1 bar is 14.7 psi is 26.46 litres per minute.

http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/meters+head



Your still being confusing or confused. There is no direct connection between psi/bar and litres per minute. You need to include the supply pipe size.

From your link "LPM is a measure of flow and doesn't translate to PSI, they are different units of measure."

For example water cutters work at 20,000 to 100,000psi and do not use kilo litres per minute, they use litres or fractions of a litre per minute. City water in the west is often about 60psi and they put through kilo litres per minute or second. Different pipe size.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:53 pm

arranp wrote:Also, I will have a 20,000 to 40,000 concrete litre tank built under the house to harvest rain water and use an electric pump to pump the water up to the twin tanks at the top of the tower.

You're doing everything arse about face. Have you any idea what sort of piles are needed to support that sort of water? Have you any idea of the cost to put in those piles? Does your architect have any idea of what you intend doing? Have you any idea about keeping those tanks clean, how you are going to clean them once a year without destroying your foundations, flooding the neighbours out and how long they take to clean?
All this has been gone into great detail in other threads which apparently you refuse to read and instead start a new thread each time. You are wasting peoples' time by doing it "your way" and there is hours and hours of research/experience already gone into on all the subjects.
You are never going to fit your proposed house on the limited land you have already unless you have a brilliant architect and engineer.......then you have to get approval from the Or Bor Tor and maybe the Tesaban and that is at their whim. This is Thailand, not Australia or any other country, and as I said, it has already been covered in other threads.
At the top righthand corner of Coolthaihouse there is a search engine, just put in what you want there and it will take you to where it has been covered.
As someone who has built a swimming pool (still unfilled - was during the floods) inside my house (4 X 7) I can assure you the tonnage from the water is massive. It took a survey crew, engineer, architect and research to even contemplate doing it and then the Or Bor Tor refused to allow them to sign the plans because their qualifications were not high enough and it had to be sent to better qualified people. That was 164 pages of calculations, plus the pages and pages of the plans.
You have to put the horse before the cart, not the cart first. And each time you defeat the purpose of what you propose because you haven't thought it through. Building a house comes in stages, you're trying to put the roof on without bothering with piles, footings, beams, columns and trusses..... it won't work and its never worked that way.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:08 pm

Your head of 5.8m above your shower head will only give you the minimum 8psi. While showers are supposed to work at that minimum you may not be happy with the pressure.

Also remember that the 5.8m should be the middle to bottom of the tank
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:23 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:Also, I will have a 20,000 to 40,000 concrete litre tank built under the house to harvest rain water and use an electric pump to pump the water up to the twin tanks at the top of the tower.

You're doing everything arse about face. Have you any idea what sort of piles are needed to support that sort of water? Have you any idea of the cost to put in those piles? Does your architect have any idea of what you intend doing? Have you any idea about keeping those tanks clean, how you are going to clean them once a year without destroying your foundations, flooding the neighbours out and how long they take to clean?


its already been done at my friends resort, rain water is harvested from the roof into the concrete tank under the house, when needed it is pumped via a water filter upto the header tanks 5 to 7 meters up. Its been working for him for 10 years or more.

Cost, umm, wait and see, but my motivation is to use clean energy instead of using the utility companies, I'm trying to be self sufficient, harvest my own water, produce my own electricity.

Roger Ramjet wrote:All this has been gone into great detail in other threads which apparently you refuse to read and instead start a new thread each time. You are wasting peoples' time by doing it "your way" and there is hours and hours of research/experience already gone into on all the subjects.
You are never going to fit your proposed house on the limited land you have already unless you have a brilliant architect and engineer.......then you have to get approval from the Or Bor Tor and maybe the Tesaban and that is at their whim.


I was looking for calculations to get the header tank height, your post helped do that ??

Roger Ramjet wrote:
arranp wrote:I've been searching for days/weeks, for a calculator or formula to know:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... -vs-height



Roger Ramjet wrote:This is Thailand, not Australia or any other country, and as I said, it has already been covered in other threads.
At the top righthand corner of Coolthaihouse there is a search engine, just put in what you want there and it will take you to where it has been covered.


I search but don't find anything straight away, end up going round in endless loops for days...

Roger Ramjet wrote:As someone who has built a swimming pool (still unfilled - was during the floods) inside my house (4 X 7) I can assure you the tonnage from the water is massive. It took a survey crew, engineer, architect and research to even contemplate doing it and then the Or Bor Tor refused to allow them to sign the plans because their qualifications were not high enough and it had to be sent to better qualified people. That was 164 pages of calculations, plus the pages and pages of the plans.


A friend has a resort, Cape Yamu, their villas have 23m x 10m swimming pools approx 300,000 litres on columns. I'm looking for far less than that, 2 to 3 months water would be 40,000 to 60,000 litres or 60 cubic meters, assuming a 2m tank height the tank would need to be 30 meters square.

Roger Ramjet wrote:You have to put the horse before the cart, not the cart first. And each time you defeat the purpose of what you propose because you haven't thought it through. Building a house comes in stages, you're trying to put the roof on without bothering with piles, footings, beams, columns and trusses..... it won't work and its never worked that way.


The architect already knows all that, I'm doing the research on the clean energy stuff.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:37 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Your head of 5.8m above your shower head will only give you the minimum 8psi. While showers are supposed to work at that minimum you may not be happy with the pressure.


The calculator shows 5.8m head to be 0.568640087056 bar
http://www.convertunits.com/from/meters+head/to/bar

The following website concurs with my calcs, its titled "0.5 bar working pressure, 15 litres per min cold mains"
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=240507

Sometimewoodworker wrote:Also remember that the 5.8m should be the middle to bottom of the tank


See the following exert, there are differing opinions
water pressure will be between 2 to 3-meters of water pressure, which is measured from the top of the water level to the outlet of the water, which is about 1700mm below the ceiling to the bath (standard home built today).

https://www.emergencyplumber.uk.com/plumbing/gravity-fed-water-pressure/

I can see the sense in measuring from half way point of the tank as the water being pumped up and in will be slower than the water going out and down.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby arranp » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:46 pm

just to give you a bit of insight into myself.

My carreer until I was 40 was an IT software systems engineer, contracted to IBM, Unilever, Kraft, Philip Morris, supporting SAP systems with 5000+ users and planning preventative maintenance.

With the money I've earn't as a contractor, I've bought plots and built houses in the UK and renovated several houses, I've bought and converted pubs into shared accommodation. The largest shared accommodation has 21 rooms, the next 14 rooms, the remaining all have 5 to 6 rooms.

Here is my portfolio http://www.wrexhamrooms.co.uk/ I have built over the last 10 years, currently I have 130 tenants and about 30 properties, I manage this from thailand with maintenance teams and property managers on the ground in the UK.

I do what I'm interested in and pay people to do the normal stuff.
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Re: Water Tank Height, Litres per minute, pipe diameter

Postby Roger Ramjet » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:47 pm

arranp wrote:The architect already knows all that, I'm doing the research on the clean energy stuff.

If the architect knows all that how is he going to incorporate all your extra stuff (clean energy) you keep talking about? You should be talking to him at least face to face once a week and giving him your additions. Most architects use CAD programs which in turn do all the calculations straight away.... that's what you're paying him for and it needs to be icorporated on the plans now because you can't get approval for it later. It must be in the plans. But then this is Thailand and a few baht can get you anything......but it won't get underground tanks without the massive piles and it won't get you a builder who understands how to build it, and there lies your biggest problem. And I hope you are saving the rent money because my piles alone cost 600,000 Baht + and you are far away from the "professionals" in Bangkok.
Your friends can have all they like regarding swimming pools, but I bet their pools are "not run on clean energy" and are certainly not self suffiecient. Whatever happened to you calling it "green" the whole time? It costs money to run motors, pumps and other electrical appliances and you can't and won't get approval for a residence in Thailand to run solar. So how are you going to do it?
arranp wrote:I search but don't find anything straight away, end up going round in endless loops for days...

Are you saying the search engine here doesn't work? It's worked for all of us now for a few years and I even used it just a few minutes ago..... and it worked straight away.
You need to talk with the architect and engineer, but you aren't.
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