Bore Hole and House Supply

Anything to do with the subject of water or plumbing. Any type of well (hand dug wells, drilled wells, etc.), plumbing (but not swimming pools) or any other discussion related to water.

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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Roger Ramjet » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Mikos,
I realise you have a well, whilst I have notoriously bad "mains pressure" supplied from the local water authority. To get around this I installed two 1,000 litre tanks. As I have a two story house with three bathrooms, (a shower in each, bath in one and a spa bath in another), two of these on the second floor and an indoor swimming pool on the ground floor, I placed a Mitsubishi WT-P400 GX shallow well pump above the last flood line (about 2 metres off the ground) after the two 1,000 litre tanks so the "mains pressure" water goes into the two holding tanks and then is distributed around the house by the pressure pump. It's a huge pump with either a bladder or holding tank, or pessure tank under the motor. I state all three because I have no idea what the tank is. But the reason I bought it is to stop the constant on off cycling of the motor when small amounts of water are used...like flushing a few toilets or doing the washing up. It also lifts the water to the 100 litre hot water tank I have in one bathroom, which then feeds the rest of the house. It also serves the spa bath that is rather large for two people. Add watering the garden flowers and a few other small things and the pump does the job it was designed to do; supply water under pressure right thoughout the house no matter how far or high from the pump.
You have your submersible pump that will supply normal needs to ?????, I would recommend holding tanks and from there, depending on your demand, a suitable pressure pump that does the same as mine; services the various small uses without recycling on and off all the time. It might take a larger pump than first thought, but better to be safe than sorry and having to go back and buy a bigger one.
To get around the dodgy Thai water I installed a drinking water filter system in the kitchen which gives clean drinking water 24/7 without having to buy it. Even though I have gone through three, they all paid for themselves within a few months.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:48 am

Roger Ramjet wrote:Mikos,
, I placed a Mitsubishi WT-P400 GX shallow well pump above the last flood line (about 2 metres off the ground) after the two 1,000 litre tanks so the "mains pressure" water goes into the two holding tanks and then is distributed around the house by the pressure pump. It's a huge pump with either a bladder or holding tank, or pessure tank under the motor. I state all three because I have no idea what the tank is. But the reason I bought it is to stop the constant on off cycling of the motor when small amounts of water are used...like flushing a few toilets or doing the washing up.


The Mitsubishi W series well pumps have a pressure tank under the motor, they are designed to add a small amount of air to this tank every time they are used. However it is possible sometimes for the pressure tank to become waterlogged "loose it's air charge" with the Mitsubishi well pumps this has an easy fix. 1) disconnect the electricity 2) for safety turn off the output and input water (you do have isolation stopcocks I hope) 3)unscrew the pressure tank drain plug and let all the water drain out. 4) put the drain plug back in turn on the water then electricity and you are finished for the next few years.

If you have the isolation stopcocks it will take you no more than 5 minutes, most of that time waiting for the water to flow out of the tank.

BTW Rodger, is your hot water gravity fed? And do you have constant temperature mixing taps?

The one point is that if you have instant hot water units Mitsubishi W series well pumps are not recommended they recommend the E constant pressure series, because the pressure on the W pumps will fluctuate so the water temperature will do the same.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:01 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:If you have the isolation stopcocks it will take you no more than 5 minutes, most of that time waiting for the water to flow out of the tank.

I do. I can cut the water off before or after the tanks as well as before the motor. There is a proper all weather on/off switch next to the pump. I have bled the system once already when the pipes inside the house blew and did it by torch light, on a ladder, so it must be simple. Other than that the pump has worked a dream.
Sometimewoodworker wrote:BTW Rodger, is your hot water gravity fed? And do you have constant temperature mixing taps?

My hot water is not gravity fed. The pump does the work. I'm not sure what you mean by constant temparature mixing taps. I have hot and cold water taps. We all like having different sorts of showers or baths. I have rain showers with "normal" showers combined, once you get the temperature you want it stays constant.
Sometimewoodworker wrote:The one point is that if you have instant hot water units Mitsubishi W series well pumps are not recommended they recommend the E constant pressure series, because the pressure on the W pumps will fluctuate so the water temperature will do the same.

I have never had any problems, the pressure is constant and doesn't fluctuate. I have different water pipes for the hot and cold water that are seperate because once they go through the hot water tank the pipes are different material.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:09 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:BTW Rodger, is your hot water gravity fed? And do you have constant temperature mixing taps?

My hot water is not gravity fed. The pump does the work. I'm not sure what you mean by constant temparature mixing taps. I have hot and cold water taps. We all like having different sorts of showers or baths. I have rain showers with "normal" showers combined, once you get the temperature you want it stays constant.


Normal mixer taps allow any range of temperature, so if your hot water is normally kept at 70 degrees and you turn on the hot only or for some reason the cold supply stops then you get 70 degree water and ouch! However constant temperature mixing taps have their own thermostat and a maximum temperature setting so even if the water pressure or supply temperature changes the temperature of the water you use dosen't. The usual maximum setting is not much over 42 degrees and some have a 38 degree safety setting to avoid danger to old people or young kids.

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:The one point is that if you have instant hot water units Mitsubishi W series well pumps are not recommended they recommend the E constant pressure series, because the pressure on the W pumps will fluctuate so the water temperature will do the same.

I have never had any problems, the pressure is constant and doesn't fluctuate. I have different water pipes for the hot and cold water that are seperate because once they go through the hot water tank the pipes are different material.

According to Hitachi on page 7 of your manual with the WP series it does "on at 220kPa (2.2kgf/cm2) OFF ( 280kPa (2.8kgf/cm2)" You would need a WM series pump to have no fluctuation 200kPa (2.0kgf/cm2) with a minimum 4 l/min flow rate.

If you have constant temperature mixer taps you wouldn't notice any difference in temperature or if you can run the water out as fast as the pump can supply (56 l/min) there will be do difference.

The other point is that usually stored hot water systems are not pressurised. They have their own stop valve and a pressure relief system so that the hot water can expand. However if yours is pressurised then the hot water pressure will fluctuate in line with the cold so again there would not be any change in temperature.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:29 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:The other point is that usually stored hot water systems are not pressurised. They have their own stop valve and a pressure relief system so that the hot water can expand. However if yours is pressurised then the hot water pressure will fluctuate in line with the cold so again there would not be any change in temperature.

I was told, because there is no relief valve in sight that the Eltron is pressurised and has electronic safety cut-off inbuilt. It can be adjusted for temperature required by taking down the bottom plate. I think it's a PSH100-SI. I'd have to look at the manual to be sure. I bought it because it said it conformed to all EU standards of safety. It's also very cheap to run and requires only 1 mm wiring.
The reason I bought the Mitsubishi pump was to service the whole house, pool and garden. For what it's worth its done the job well. I also needed a lift pump because it is mounted on the wall two metres above ground level.
But, I am no pump expert, or hot water heater expert, so I just went with what was recommended.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:44 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:
Sometimewoodworker wrote:The other point is that usually stored hot water systems are not pressurised. They have their own stop valve and a pressure relief system so that the hot water can expand. However if yours is pressurised then the hot water pressure will fluctuate in line with the cold so again there would not be any change in temperature.

I was told, because there is no relief valve in sight that the Eltron is pressurised and has electronic safety cut-off inbuilt. It can be adjusted for temperature required by taking down the bottom plate. I think it's a PSH100-SI. I'd have to look at the manual to be sure. I bought it because it said it conformed to all EU standards of safety. It's also very cheap to run and requires only 1 mm wiring.
The reason I bought the Mitsubishi pump was to service the whole house, pool and garden. For what it's worth its done the job well. I also needed a lift pump because it is mounted on the wall two metres above ground level.
But, I am no pump expert, or hot water heater expert, so I just went with what was recommended.

Now I'm totally confused. The picture you showed in your build is a Hitachi WT-P400GX. Did you change that one.

However for information for others both the shallow well pumps and the constant pressure pumps can be mounted above the level of the water supply. The shallow well pumps (Mitsubishi WP and Hitachi WT) can suck from about a maximum of 7 to 8 metres and pump to about 20 metres. The constant pressure pumps lift from 6 to 8 meters and pump to about 18 metres.

image.jpg
Mitsubishi water pump info


image.jpg
Hitachi water pump info
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Roger Ramjet » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:35 pm

I apologise I am getting my Mitsubishi's and Hitachi's mixed up. Does that mean it's okay? I looked at the charts but only the bottom one had constant pressure, which excludes my Hitachi model.... or does it?
Roger Ramjet wrote:But, I am no pump expert, or hot water heater expert, so I just went with what was recommended.

Which is why I wrote the above. To me a pump is a pump is a pump.
Roger Ramjet wrote:I was told, because there is no relief valve in sight that the Eltron is pressurised and has electronic safety cut-off inbuilt. It can be adjusted for temperature required by taking down the bottom plate. I think it's a PSH100-SI. I'd have to look at the manual to be sure. I bought it because it said it conformed to all EU standards of safety. It's also very cheap to run and requires only 1 mm wiring.

And here I was referring to the Eltron hot water heater.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:36 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:I apologise I am getting my Mitsubishi's and Hitachi's mixed up. Does that mean it's okay? I looked at the charts but only the bottom one had constant pressure, which excludes my Hitachi model.... or does it?

Your pump is not a constant pressure pump. But as you are happy with the performance, QED, it's OK. Hitachi constant pressure pumps are the WM series Mitsubishi are the EP series.

I gave all the extra information for others who don't have a pump yet. Well pumps are not recommended for instant hot water units.

I don't know if you have any instant hot water units but your pump is probably quit a bit larger than is really needed for your house as it is designed for up to 9 taps to be on at any 1 time and can supply to a hight of 22 metres. This may mean that as it's over sized it can supply an instant hot water unit.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Mike Judd » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:36 am

While we are one the subject of pumps I have a question for any of you experts. on my next visit in Nov the first thing I have to buy is the right pump for all of my water supply. Starting with a 30,000lt concrete in the ground tank which is supplied from my roof water and is now full I'am told. This tank is 2mts deep and approx 35mts of 20m.m.P.P.-R. pipe along the ground to the furthest point ,then up 2 mts to the Water heater and shower head. There are other taps along the way with the other heater and shower 18mts away from the tank plus the 2mts up. This will give me 3 taps supplying hot water through 2 heaters, plus 10 cold taps including the 3 W.C. cisterns.
I envisage putting the pump just above the tank along side it. maybe some sort of basic filter system if the rain water in the tank needs it but also the normal drinking water filters under the kitchen sink for cooking and drinking supply.I have been looking at the Hitachi Pressure pumps , any suggestions on this would be welcome.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:07 am

Mike Judd wrote:While we are one the subject of pumps I have a question for any of you experts. on my next visit in Nov the first thing I have to buy is the right pump for all of my water supply. Starting with a 30,000lt concrete in the ground tank which is supplied from my roof water and is now full I'am told. This tank is 2mts deep and approx 35mts of 20m.m.P.P.-R. pipe along the ground to the furthest point ,then up 2 mts to the Water heater and shower head. There are other taps along the way with the other heater and shower 18mts away from the tank plus the 2mts up. This will give me 3 taps supplying hot water through 2 heaters, plus 10 cold taps including the 3 W.C. cisterns.
I envisage putting the pump just above the tank along side it. maybe some sort of basic filter system if the rain water in the tank needs it but also the normal drinking water filters under the kitchen sink for cooking and drinking supply.I have been looking at the Hitachi Pressure pumps , any suggestions on this would be welcome.


You should get either a Hitachi WM series or a Mitsubishi EP series. The important point is how many taps will be on at any one time. If your not going to want to use more than 4 POIs at one time then the smallest pump is big enough WM-P150GX or EP-155QS

A point that won't help you, but may help anybody else who hasn't built yet, is that you should keep the supply pipe as large as is reasonable for as long as is possible. So this means running all pipe work at at least 25mm for smaller houses and 35mm for bigger ones then each point of use has a reducer to the size needed usually 12mm.
If you do that then you will permit the pump to supply the maximum number of POIs at full pressure.
If however you run 12mm pipe everywhere you will only get good pressure at 1 or 2 points however big your pump is.
Another point is that, if you use PVC (blue) pipe, you should probably also use 13.5 not 8.5 as the thicker wall pipe takes longer to become brittle.

FWIW we have a Mitsubishi EP-155Q that is over 7 years old and still going strong, the flow switch has just started to fail which I can replace myself easly the part cost about ฿1,700 and arrived from Mitsubishi in 2 days. And an English speaking Mitsubishi technician diagnosed the fault over the phone.

I will probably get another Mitsubishi pump when we build our new house.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:00 am

Mike Judd wrote:While we are one the subject of pumps I have a question for any of you experts. on my next visit in Nov the first thing I have to buy is the right pump for all of my water supply.


One more point as your pump will be at a higher point than the top of your water supply don't forget to fit a strainer valve to the bottom of your input pipe. Here is a picture of what you need. For those who don't know why. The strainer part is obvious, the valve is there to keep the supply pipe full of water so that when the pump switches on you get water immediately, without the valve the water could drain out of your system. Though most pumps have a Check valve วาลวกันนํ้าไหลกลับ so that your house supply will not drain back.

image.jpg
Strainer valve
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Ians » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:12 pm

Sometimewoodworker wrote:
Mike Judd wrote:While we are one the subject of pumps I have a question for any of you experts. on my next visit in Nov the first thing I have to buy is the right pump for all of my water supply.


One more point as your pump will be at a higher point than the top of your water supply don't forget to fit a strainer valve to the bottom of your input pipe. Here is a picture of what you need. For those who don't know why. The strainer part is obvious, the valve is there to keep the supply pipe full of water so that when the pump switches on you get water immediately, without the valve the water could drain out of your system. Though most pumps have a Check valve วาลวกันนํ้าไหลกลับ so that your house supply will not drain back.

image.jpg


The bottom of the foot valve / strainer needs to be located a minimum 100 mm above the bottom of your tank, this is to ensure no foreign material blocks the strainer and if able to pass the strainer doesn't get into the system.

I would also look at Grundfos pumps, these are very high quality units, more expensive than the others but extremely quiet in operation.

Have you thought what the peak demand flow rate might be- this will also be a factor in your pump selection.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Mike Judd » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:21 pm

Thanks a lot Guys ! With the pipe size I used the D25 in P.P.-R for all the runs ,going to the D20 at the taps, but because of the thickness you lose a bit in the I.D. compared to the ordinary blue pipe. I don't envisage there will be more than 2 taps going at one time (Kitchen and Toilet or a shower) but I do want decent pressure for the shower going through the Instantaneous heater which will be the multiple tap supply one with the fairly big tank. Thanks for the tip about the Strainer Valve even if the pump has a non return in it. :D :D
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Sometimewoodworker » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Mike Judd wrote:Thanks a lot Guys ! With the pipe size I used the D25 in P.P.-R for all the runs ,going to the D20 at the taps, but because of the thickness you lose a bit in the I.D. compared to the ordinary blue pipe. I don't envisage there will be more than 2 taps going at one time (Kitchen and Toilet or a shower) but I do want decent pressure for the shower going through the Instantaneous heater which will be the multiple tap supply one with the fairly big tank. Thanks for the tip about the Strainer Valve even if the pump has a non return in it. :D :D


When you say D25 and D20 is that the nominal diameter in mm? If so then D20 at the taps is quite big, they usually use 12mm. But if those are the diameters then you will have no reduction in pressure or flow rate due to your piping.

However I'm confused when you say you have an Instantaneous heater with a fairly big tank. As if it has a tank then it isn't an Instantaneous heater. Instantaneous heaters have no storage tank. There are multi point Instantaneous heaters but again no tank.

For sure WM-P150GX or EP-155QS or the smallest Grundfos, though with the Grundfos you do need to be careful which unit you get as one of them has a maximum of a 1metre above the top of the water to the pump.

Unless you like needle showers (very high pressure) or 2 rain showers with over 10" heads the small Mitsubishi or Hitachi will be enough. The Grundfos has a much higher output pressure, for me the EP-155Q we have is more than enough, and (in our current house) we made the mistake of running 12mm pipe everywhere so the out put flow and pressure is limited with more than 1 poi at a time :oops: :oops: but it is still good enough.
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Re: Bore Hole and House Supply

Postby Mikos » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:00 pm

Roger Ramjet wrote:Mikos,
I realise you have a well, whilst I have notoriously bad "mains pressure" supplied from the local water authority. To get around this I installed two 1,000 litre tanks. As I have a two story house with three bathrooms, (a shower in each, bath in one and a spa bath in another), two of these on the second floor and an indoor swimming pool on the ground floor, I placed a Mitsubishi WT-P400 GX shallow well pump above the last flood line (about 2 metres off the ground) after the two 1,000 litre tanks so the "mains pressure" water goes into the two holding tanks and then is distributed around the house by the pressure pump. It's a huge pump with either a bladder or holding tank, or pessure tank under the motor. I state all three because I have no idea what the tank is. But the reason I bought it is to stop the constant on off cycling of the motor when small amounts of water are used...like flushing a few toilets or doing the washing up. It also lifts the water to the 100 litre hot water tank I have in one bathroom, which then feeds the rest of the house. It also serves the spa bath that is rather large for two people. Add watering the garden flowers and a few other small things and the pump does the job it was designed to do; supply water under pressure right thoughout the house no matter how far or high from the pump.
You have your submersible pump that will supply normal needs to ?????, I would recommend holding tanks and from there, depending on your demand, a suitable pressure pump that does the same as mine; services the various small uses without recycling on and off all the time. It might take a larger pump than first thought, but better to be safe than sorry and having to go back and buy a bigger one.
To get around the dodgy Thai water I installed a drinking water filter system in the kitchen which gives clean drinking water 24/7 without having to buy it. Even though I have gone through three, they all paid for themselves within a few months.


Thanks for your help/info. I'm starting to get my head round the set-up I will eventually need. Also picked up on the pipe size mentioned in a later post. Thanks guys.
If you are interested in reading about my unfolding Thai house build story it is available at http://www.thaihousebuild.thailand-blogs.com
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