How does it work water pump

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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby BKKBILL » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:21 pm

gliffaes wrote:No the only pump is the submersible...........no other pumps anywhere in the system. same as this diagram posted a while back

Don’t shoot!

Your diagram shows how I did my system with pressure tank and switching in the house. No problems other than I didn’t use enough cable ties on wiring in the well so when pump cycled the torque eventually cut one of wires.

Can’t help with your wiring.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:56 pm

BKKBILL wrote:
gliffaes wrote:No the only pump is the submersible...........no other pumps anywhere in the system. same as this diagram posted a while back

Don’t shoot!

Your diagram shows how I did my system with pressure tank and switching in the house. No problems other than I didn’t use enough cable ties on wiring in the well so when pump cycled the torque eventually cut one of wires.

Can’t help with your wiring.


Bloody useless,,,,,,,,,,,got an electrician who did the guesthouse coming tomorrow I read that the electric MUST go to the square D switch first then into the Franklin control box?
Since w e last spoke Ive been real busy, put miles of water pipe round the land , shovelled tons of stone chippings, put in a load of BIG trees and a shed load of other stuff inc irrigation sprinklers...............had 2 good staff...............lasted 6 whole weeks!! The boy worked well if somewhat Bull in a China shoppish the girl was reasonable..............they left with the old "father sick" story in fact he told the agent the work was too hard............. all weak woosies these days I did half the work with him shovelling stones etc and Im 51 if he worked for anyone else he would have been left to do the lot......................we did get through a great deal of jobs though I just wish they would say "look we are finding the work too hard we'd like to leave in a week" .
Instead they just announce one afternoon " we have to go tomorrow"
Next lot coming soon???BUT.....this time we have got them a nice shiny new BAMBOO house which they can live in like pigs, no running water just those jars and a hole in the ground to crap in, one light one socket and a TV........ should be happy as pigs in muck ++++++++++ bonus when its like a pig sty we can burn it down and buy another for 30k
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:15 am

I found the answer for thw wiring
here......nice n easy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGuXPCkr8s
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:56 pm

All in and working, not sure what pressures to have the water ive got cut in at 30psi ( bladder at 28psi air pressure) cut out at 50 psi ............... got a slight weep at the manifold 1 drop of water per 8.5 minutes, dont know if its worth bothering with? I always and impossible to tighten without dismantling but not too difficult to do I always have trouble with those plastic males much prefer the metal males, the female manifold is metal and all the metal to metal joints are fine and leak free
Im seeing how the pressure holds up now overnight as its not connected to the house yet, will do that when everything checks out.
Been on an hour now and no pressure drop.
I have noticed before now often these joints will stop leaking almost as if the ptfe swells up and seals it? maybe wishful thinking but I have seen that
If not Ill strip it out use more ptfe and some permatex sealant also.
Or is it so small not worth bothering?
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby BKKBILL » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:56 pm

gliffaes wrote:Or is it so small not worth bothering?


Leave it be chances are it will seal on it's own. If your pipe sizing is right 50 PSI should be adequate.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby Ians » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:06 pm

gliffaes wrote:All in and working, not sure what pressures to have the water ive got cut in at 30psi ( bladder at 28psi air pressure) cut out at 50 psi ............... got a slight weep at the manifold 1 drop of water per 8.5 minutes, dont know if its worth bothering with? I always and impossible to tighten without dismantling but not too difficult to do I always have trouble with those plastic males much prefer the metal males, the female manifold is metal and all the metal to metal joints are fine and leak free
Im seeing how the pressure holds up now overnight as its not connected to the house yet, will do that when everything checks out.
Been on an hour now and no pressure drop.
I have noticed before now often these joints will stop leaking almost as if the ptfe swells up and seals it? maybe wishful thinking but I have seen that
If not Ill strip it out use more ptfe and some permatex sealant also.
Or is it so small not worth bothering?


I agree with BKKBill, leave it - I'm sure it will finally seal up with the crud in the water, either calcium / iron or something else.
I would be interested in the recovery time from low pressure switch on the high pressure switch off when running on the house and a there is a demand on the tank - with such a large tank I feel there could be a long delay from low pressure back to reasonable pressure with a couple of taps open - unless of course you have a high flow well pump that can catch up very quickly to the demand. A small point but one of interest for those looking at a similar set-up.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:16 am

Well am a bit baffled now, got up looked at water pressure all is fine 3.5 bar, turned the tap full on bear in mind not connected to the house yet just got a inline tap and elbow out the side of the well house to make sure all is ok.
So left the water on running quite strongly pressure went down from 3.5 bar to 2 bar in about 45 seconds but then the pump wouldnt kick in?
I can hear the Franklin control box clicking inside but pump wont switch on and pump water......will investigate later?
Any ideas ?
Worked fine yesterday, I can get a small flow of water out of the tank and the pressure gauge read just under 2 bar but if i open the tap up further the gauge drops to zero, turn it off and back up to 2 bar , this might be something about Ian saying see how long the pump takes to fill the tank with high demand........... it was high probably too high? full bore thru a 1 inch pipe. :(
I see a small switch on the top of the pressure switch under the cover I " think" this might need pressing down as it might be there to protect the well pump incase of sudden pressure loss?
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:03 am

Ok figured it out all working again, had to adjust the pressure switch and adjust tank air pressure..........phew!!
Maybe my opening up the tap full bore (1inch) and letting the pressure escape real fast from the tank triggered the switch to think there was a leak and trying to protect the pump......?
working ok now.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:39 pm

and now not working???
Im beginning to wonder if the pressure switch is faulty, Ive adjusted it ok but then sometimes it wont switch off or the pressure gets to 3.5 bar with nothing turned on and still wont switch off???
Yesterday worked fine although makes a buzzing sound .
So it will switch on at about 30 psi set with the big knob but wont switch off no matter which way i turn the smaller of the two knobs which should control shut off.
I got this off grundfos it arrived with no box i wonder if they took it off another machine, also had no instructions.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby pattayapope » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:57 pm

You should not drive the pump directly from the pressure switch as the load is too high, better to have a contactor (relay). Really not sure what you have done but sounds like you have played with the pressure switch too much, can you post some pictures and Imight have a better understanding. :roll:

PP
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby Ians » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:04 pm

gliffaes wrote:and now not working???
Im beginning to wonder if the pressure switch is faulty, Ive adjusted it ok but then sometimes it wont switch off or the pressure gets to 3.5 bar with nothing turned on and still wont switch off???
Yesterday worked fine although makes a buzzing sound .
So it will switch on at about 30 psi set with the big knob but wont switch off no matter which way i turn the smaller of the two knobs which should control shut off.
I got this off grundfos it arrived with no box i wonder if they took it off another machine, also had no instructions.


Attached 2 pages from Grundfos operation manual for pressure switch setting - hope it helps.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:59 pm

pattayapope wrote:You should not drive the pump directly from the pressure switch as the load is too high, better to have a contactor (relay). Really not sure what you have done but sounds like you have played with the pressure switch too much, can you post some pictures and Imight have a better understanding. :roll:

PP


Hi Pp it goes through the Franklin Relay so no worries there, Ill get some pics tomorrow.
Electric goes from the breaker to the pressure switch then back into the Franklin controller then down to the water pump
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:06 pm

Ians wrote:
gliffaes wrote:and now not working???
Im beginning to wonder if the pressure switch is faulty, Ive adjusted it ok but then sometimes it wont switch off or the pressure gets to 3.5 bar with nothing turned on and still wont switch off???
Yesterday worked fine although makes a buzzing sound .
So it will switch on at about 30 psi set with the big knob but wont switch off no matter which way i turn the smaller of the two knobs which should control shut off.
I got this off grundfos it arrived with no box i wonder if they took it off another machine, also had no instructions.


Attached 2 pages from Grundfos operation manual for pressure switch setting - hope it helps.


Thanks Ian Ill have a look, the switch is actually part of the schneider group but mine has no model number just "XMP" written on it, doesnt tell you if its a 30-50 psi switch or 60-40 psi switch nothing at all.
Yesterday before hooking it up to the house it was working fine, cut in 30 cut out 50 psi bladder tank at 28psi.
I can get water ok but currently not automatically, I have to turn the switch on and off manually filling it up to 3.5 bar which is ok for shower toilet etc, no good for watering.
I tried it on 15 small sprinklers, the pump could keep up the pressure at 3.5 bar BUT is it ok for the pump to keep running if that load increases as long as it doesnt drop below the cut in etc i mean I use what im pumping and only when i stop the sprinklers does the pressure switch build the pressure up then cut off ( when its working that is)
Pressure switch brand is "elctromecanique"part of schneider group but supplied by grundfos????
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby Ians » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:01 pm

It is ok for the pump to run continuously provided it is within the operating range of the pump. To make sure you would need to post a copy of the pump curve, the depth the water level at its operating condition from ground level, the height of the discharge point (you pressure tank) the flowrate and pipe length, all the fittings in the pipeline and pipe sizes etc. this will allow some calculations to be made - failing that an accurate current draw / voltage may give a reasonable indication as to where the pump is operating provided we have an accurate flowrate.

Saying all that could be overkill, most quality bore pumps are usually conservative with their rating in terms of output and motor size - a voltage / current input check should suffice and provided the current is below maximum rating - everything should be fine.

To me sounds like something amiss with the pressure switch or the way the switch / pump are wired together.
It's pretty simple - when pressure drops to its low preset- the contact should close and the pump startup and when it reaches its high preset the contacts open and stop the pump.
I'm not a sparkie so won't confuse the issue in anyway regarding the electrics.
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Re: How does it work water pump

Postby gliffaes » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:50 am

Ians wrote:It is ok for the pump to run continuously provided it is within the operating range of the pump. To make sure you would need to post a copy of the pump curve, the depth the water level at its operating condition from ground level, the height of the discharge point (you pressure tank) the flowrate and pipe length, all the fittings in the pipeline and pipe sizes etc. this will allow some calculations to be made - failing that an accurate current draw / voltage may give a reasonable indication as to where the pump is operating provided we have an accurate flowrate.

Saying all that could be overkill, most quality bore pumps are usually conservative with their rating in terms of output and motor size - a voltage / current input check should suffice and provided the current is below maximum rating - everything should be fine.

To me sounds like something amiss with the pressure switch or the way the switch / pump are wired together.
It's pretty simple - when pressure drops to its low preset- the contact should close and the pump startup and when it reaches its high preset the contacts open and stop the pump.
I'm not a sparkie so won't confuse the issue in anyway regarding the electrics.


Grundfos now telling me they just sent any old switch and will speak with me later, I might just go out and find a different one to see if it makes any difference as they arent all that expensive, at least there are no leaks in the system as pressure holds up fine over 24 hours................ as for all the pipe lengths elbows etc its waaaaaaaaaaaay too hard to calculate that, seriously it goes all over the place undergrund. Bore depth is 80 metres tank height is 1.4 metres above well head pump is Franklin BUT mounted in a Super Hurricane model hu35 chart below. The houses are small and wont draw much, irrigation will take a lot more but if needs be i can just use the well for house supply only and the town water for irrigation once ive added an inline filter in the road
I read that Franklin say 300 cycles per day maximum for their pump which was interesting.
Hurricane pump is 1hp I timed it once to fill a 25 gallon bucket, took 35 seconds on full power. Well is 1000 litres an hour I have another well not in use 4000 litres an hour for the main house. Best thing is water quality is excellent
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